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22 urgent problems
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Toke
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Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Location: Oklahoma

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:39 am    Post subject: 22 urgent problems Reply with quote

I have isolated 22 urgent zdaemon problems that need to be fixed in the next zdaemon release.

These are problems that negativly effect serious 1 on 1 competition.



1 spectator chat
2 spectator time
3 oldschool sound distance
4 oldschool bump
5 oldschool wallrun
6 oldschool item sounds
7 oldschool rockets
8 oldschool ssg
9 oldschool mouse
10 remove 0 ammo weapon disallow
11 remove exit death
12 remove neverswitchonpickup
13 improve lag handeling
14 fix overscore/underscore
15 fix bfg timing
16 remove connect graphics
17 create connect/disconnect/join sounds
18 reset map on 0 connections
19 fix spawn telefrag bug
20 fix frozen entities bug
21 fix dead items bug
22 fix angle resolution






1. Spectator chat

Players that are in the game can hear the sounds of chatting spectators.
This can be very distracting when there are lots of spectators.
The sound of a chatstring should not be played for players that have JOINED the game.



2. Spectator time

A players timer (the time collum in the scoreboard and player list) starts when the connection is made.
This timer should not start until the player JOINS the game.



3. Oldschool sound distance

Zdoom/zdaemon sounds travel much farther than in the origonal game.
This creates problems when playing certain oldschool maps.



4. Oldschool bump

I think everyone knows what this is and why it needs to be fixed.



5. Oldschool wallrun

In the origonal game wallrun only worked one way.
zdoom wallrun creates timing problems in map01 because it allows players to enter the plasma room too fast.



6. Oldschool item sounds

Players were unable to hear other players picking up items/weapons in the origonal doom.
Zdaemon gives away the players position when an item/weapon is picked up.



7. Oldschool rockets

Rocket damage in the origonal doom was very different.
Rockets did more damage with a larger blast radius and the explotions were infinatly tall.



8. Oldschool ssg

The origonal doom had a different ssg/sg/cg/pistol pellet spread.



9. Oldschool mouse

The origonal doom had a different equation for turning the mouse inputs into the players angle.
It was easier to aim with the origonal equation.



10. Remove 0 ammo disallow

Zdaemon prevents you from switching to a weapon that you have 0 ammo for.
If you are about to pickup ammo for a weapon you may want to switch to that weapon first so there no delay before you can fire.



11. Remove exit death

Players should not be allowed to kill themselves via exitswitch.



12. Remove neverswitchonpickup

This is an option that was left over from zdoom 1.22 and intended for use in single player, nightfang forgot to remove it and now alot of players have gotten used to it.
This option gives unfair advantage to those who choose to use it.
It alters the way certain maps were designed to be played by getting around an intended weapon pickup delay.
This option must be removed before anyone else learns to rely on "training wheels".



13. improve lag handeling

There are several things that can be done to improve the negative effects of internet latency.
I wont get into it here.



14. fix overscore/underscore

This happens when the final frag is a double kill.
When the double kill is also a suicide it should not count as a win yet.



15. fix BFG timing

There is a serious problem with BFG rays.
They often fire too early, it seems that the longer the ball travels the more premature the rays are.



16. remove connect graphics

when a player connects to the server there is a false player spawn graphic/sound.
This is distracting and misleading and should be removed.



17. Create connect/disconnect/join sounds

These should be 3 NEW sounds that give players better knowledge of when connections are made and broken and when a player JOINS the game.



18. Reset map on 0 connections

When players leave a server midgame the level stays in the state they left it.
This leaves items picked up and switches toggled.
When the number of connections to a server becomes 0 the server should cycle the map.



19. Fix spawn telefrag bug

When a player is spawn telefragged by a player (not by a bot) the player is only half killed.
This leaves the player often displayed on one of the death frames and removed the players weapon frames and ability to change weapons aswell as weapon sounds.
It however leaves him with the ability to move around and fire and it does not kill the player as it should.
This bug causes problems for both players and should be removed.
This is a fairly simple bug that was caused by nightfang being lazy, I dont see why there is such a problem putting the proper code behind the instance of a player spawning ontop of of an existing player.



20. Fix frozen entities bug

Sometimes when connecting to a server that has alot going on ammo entities like rockets, bfg balls and plasma balls will get frozen in one place and remain until the map cycles or changes.
This obstructs the players view and is distracting.
It can be fixed by client side detection of these entities behaving this way.



21. Fix dead item bug

Dead items are items like ammo and powerups that display on a players screen but are ungetable.
This happens when a client misses the server notice that the item has been picked up.
This can be fixed by another server notice that the item has been picked up, similar to the bad ammo count fix. (that was the problem of having the server and client have unmatching ammo counts)
I suggest a once a minute notification of what items have been picked up.



22. Fix angle resolution

For some reason zdaemon's player angle resolution is being reduced somewhere.
I dont understand the resoning behind this, it must have been intentional but it was a very bad idea and it must be fixed.
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Toke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:42 am    Post subject: #17 Reply with quote

#17 isnt really urgent but it aids #16
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HumanBones
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Joined: 01 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didnt read all of those, but the ones that I did read or notice are problems that NEED to be fixed.
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VMDX
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Joined: 15 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to nitpick, but these are all problems that would seriously make Zdaemon a much better and smoother game if ALL fixed. These minor errors have been overlooked by many as general porting errors, but if they were fixed, I think Zdaemon would become much more cleaner and better to play in general.

Some that stuck out...

#6- For oldschool purposes, I see the difference, but personally, I enjoy this new change. It adds a bit more strategy and intracacies to think about. Just my opinion.

#7/8- These are very important. The spreads of the pellet guns, if not consistent to original doom, defy the purpose of ZD IMO. Rocket damage is also important, splash damage DOES seem very low for ZD.

#11- Interesting strategy, but my opinion takes it as exploitation of a required feature. Should be done.

#12- Yes. Definitely.

#15- ! Can be very bad if you are shooting distance on purpose.

#16- Yes, most definitely, especially if the person is deliberately holding the spawn a few extra seconds.

Good work Toke.
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deathz0r
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Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Location: I ride with the kangaroos

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: 22 urgent problems Reply with quote

Toke wrote:
7. Oldschool rockets

Rocket damage in the origonal doom was very different.
Rockets did more damage with a larger blast radius and the explotions were infinatly tall.
I'm 99% certain that rocket explosions are infinitely tall in ZDaemon 1.x, so I don't know why this was mentioned. If you have a demo to prove otherwise, then I'm definitely wrong/misleading myself.

My most annoying problem with ZDaemon is how it always forces to enable transparency when you load up ZDaemon, even after you set it to disable transparency (in the console).
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Daniel
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Joined: 22 Dec 2003

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well i think you should be given the choice of this new change or not, if you still wish to play oldskool i think you should be able to, i would count alot of them as major bugs, the "player connect spawn" is very offputting. the amount of times i have fired at that then my opponent hears where i am

nice list toke
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ufon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well done toke only i didnt see mentioned......

#no more BFG/ROCKET/PLASMA whatever weapon-lag
it happens way too often to players who are bfg oriented(like me) and whose strategy revolves about BFG that the damn ball just wont come out,
it happened to me about 10 times recently when i was dueling to 40 frags and in most of these instences i got splattered by ssg just because i stood there as a dummy fireing nothing....

and of those uve mentioned....


#1 u can disable spectator's chat only and its blocking the sound too but i dunno, i still kinda think it should be disabled by default at least for 1on1 servers(or with a certain oldschool flag)
#11 is an optional flag
#12 yes should be marked as a cheat requireing sv_cheats 1 for oldschool flag(there isnt one ? but should be)

some of those mentioned are really high priority and some are low, im running out of time now but either someone do it or ill find the most pressing ones and point them out later
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Kilgore
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Up the river

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toke, I'd like to thank you for putting all those items in a single list; it does make our "bug fixing" life much easier and I appreciate it a lot. However, I'd exersize some restraint to avoid hyperbole and keep things under perspective; yes, they are important, they have rather high priority and we do intend to fix as many of them as possible. But "urgent" they're not: urgent is something like a security problem, or zdaemon-wide server crashes, or a master problem and other things like that.

Some quick reactions for now:

1. Done since 1.05; check the "chat_block" command on your client. I remember ufon lobbying for it at the time: and no, I don't intend to make the default value "on"; we've been over that in the past. You can easily bind a key to do it if you are distracted by spectators. I don't think anyone can seriously claim that this is too much of a burden on an experienced player.

2. Why?

3. It's already on the to-do list.

4. It's probably already fixed as we speak. We're testing the fix now.

5. It has been fixed and is scheduled to appear in 1.07

6. It's already on the to-do list.

7. What "exactly" do you mean by infinitely tall? suppose i stand in the second floor of a building and you fire a rocket that hits exacly one floor underneath me. Do you want the rocket to damage me? maybe I miss the point, but please clarify.

8. ok; i'll put it in the list.

9. ok; need to check it out first.

10. Maybe that should be a user-controlled option; in the games I usually play (FFA) I strongly prefer the current ZDaemon behavior and I would expect that most people like it that way; I can understand however why you may prefer the other approach in a 1-on-1 game.

11. Does it really matter?

12. I've said it a million times already: it is about to get out of zdaemon and replaced by a preferred weapon order. The server will control if it wants to allow PWO on the clients; this should resolve any fairness issues.

13. This is not a normal bug: we're talking about net code efficiency, etc. We do intend to work on it (and that's probably the holy grail of net development), but it's not something you can fix in a day or in a week; it will take time.

14. I agree partially on that. If you're playing FFA for example, you have 39 frags and your last BFG or rocket shot kills 3 people in a single tick, then I consider it perfectly normal that the game will end with 42 frags for you. On the other hand, the suicide case is problematic... either the game should end right when you made the frag (so you would never see the suicide), or it should not trigger the end of game flag. I'll try to find a way around that.

15. ok, but i think that this is really the same as 13

16. It's already on the to-do list (and very high).

17. Same as 16

18. It's already on the to-do list.

19. It's already on the to-do list (and very high)

20. It's already on the to-do list (and very high); I disagree about the fixing method, but that's a detail. The important thing is to fix the sucker.

21. ok, but I think it's the same thing as 20

22. ok, i'm putting it on the list.
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Toke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:08 pm    Post subject: kilgore Reply with quote

Here are my responses to your comments on the list.

2. Becuase if you have been spectating for half a game then you join it will apear as if you were playing the entire time and this defeats the purpose of the timer.

7. There arent floors in doom. Say you are standing on the floor picking up the ssg and i shoot the wall directly 256 units above you with a perfectly timed rocket, in the origonal doom you would die, i know this unrealiztic but its one of those odd things that made doom deathmatch so awsome.

11. Yes it matters, most people say that its an option but they are dont get what im talking about, instead of the exit switch killing the player the exit switch should simply not function. Players use the switch to suicide for frag minimizing and getting bfg ammo faster.

12. that should be acceptable, not perfect though, MAKE SURE CLIENT CAN EASILY USE NORMAL WEAPON BEHAVIOR IF THEY CHOOSE TO. this is very important, they did it wrong in legacy and its important that zdaemon doesnt have the same mistake.

13. I understand that, I have alot of ideas for lag improvement so let me know when you are working on it, i want to work with you if possible.

14. Before a fraglimit existed the game would not be over on a suicide frag, and since a suicide frag has 2 deaths on the same gametic there would be no "before you die too" since it happens at the exact same time.

15. Its not the same as 13, Im pretty sure that this problems is caused by someone attempt at some sort of BFG prediction, weapon prediction of any kind is very bad thing, it only makes it harder to adjust for the lag and it makes weapons misbehave.

22. Do you know what i mean by this?



The reason I said this was urgent is because I have made 2 more lists.

My origonal list was about 50 items long and I broke it down into 3 lists:

Urgent problems
Not so urgent problem (problems that dont really effect gameplay but should still be fixed)
Wishlist

I havent finnished the other lists yet, I will post them when I am done, the other lists I dont expect to be taken as seriously as this one, they are just ideas and little not-so-important bugs.
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Toke
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Joined: 29 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:12 pm    Post subject: Thank you kilgore Reply with quote

BTW, I havent told you how much I apreciate your work on this project, you are the first devloper for zdaemon/csdoom with the ability to fix these problems who has givin a shit about them. I have been trying to get these problems fixed for over 4 years and thanks to you (and dash) it looks like they will finaly be straitened out.

I think I speak on behalf of every hardcore 1 on 1 zdaemon player when I say:

Thank you Kilgore!
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, thanks indeed. Not only do these issues affect just 1on1, but almost all gameplay types. I'm glad to hear they are finally getting fixed.
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Toke
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:43 pm    Post subject: kilgore Reply with quote

kilgore, are you going to fix #'s 2, 7, 10 and 11?

They are important.

Door damage needs to removed aswell.



Any change that that effects the general behavior of the game and there is no benifit from the change should be changed back.

Nothing good comes from altering the weapon behavior, the origonal games weapons were perfect and zdaemon is not as good as it could be because of these changes.
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scirmast
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Joined: 13 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: kilgore Reply with quote

Toke wrote:
kilgore, are you going to fix #'s 2, 7, 10 and 11?

They are important.

Door damage needs to removed aswell.



Any change that that effects the general behavior of the game and there is no benifit from the change should be changed back.

Nothing good comes from altering the weapon behavior, the origonal games weapons were perfect and zdaemon is not as good as it could be because of these changes.


Doom weapons were not perfect. With the current set of levels someweapons are always more important than the other ones. But your fix #7 would make rockets better, which is totally needed.

And I like the list in all it's glory.
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Toke
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you said "With the current set of levels someweapons are always more important than the other ones"

thats in ffa, these changes wont hardly made a difference in ffa since ffa is just random chatic crap.

they make all the difference in the world in 1 on 1 though.
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toke wrote:
kilgore, are you going to fix #'s 2, 7, 10 and 11? They are important.
I thought it was clear that I was ok with almost all of them, and only asked for clarifications on a couple. So, don't worry. We'll do our best to take of all.

Toke wrote:
Door damage needs to removed aswell.
Can you please elaborate on this one?

Toke wrote:
2. Becuase if you have been spectating for half a game then you join it will apear as if you were playing the entire time and this defeats the purpose of the timer.
Well, it is true that the current way of showing time is practically useless; I never paid any attention to it. Actually, I was thinking about going on a different (and better I think) direction. Recently, I've added code to keep track of time played pretty accurately (resolution of seconds and time and other stats get suspended when any bot is in the game; they continue again as soon as all bots leave). The idea is to *eventually* collect meaningful stats globally. It might be an interesting idea to also keep track of some interesting stats (with respect to the current game only) and display those with some key. I think that this would come closer to what you're after.

Toke wrote:
7. There arent floors in doom. Say you are standing on the floor picking up the ssg and i shoot the wall directly 256 units above you with a perfectly timed rocket, in the origonal doom you would die, i know this unrealiztic but its one of those odd things that made doom deathmatch so awsome
OK, but with a dmflag; there are many people who prefer the current behavior, so we'll try to accomodate both schools.

Toke wrote:
11. Yes it matters, most people say that its an option but they are dont get what im talking about, instead of the exit switch killing the player the exit switch should simply not function. Players use the switch to suicide for frag minimizing and getting bfg ammo faster.
ok, makes sense.

Toke wrote:
12. that should be acceptable, not perfect though, MAKE SURE CLIENT CAN EASILY USE NORMAL WEAPON BEHAVIOR IF THEY CHOOSE TO. this is very important, they did it wrong in legacy and its important that zdaemon doesnt have the same mistake.
I'm thinking about a toggle enabling / disabling PWO. That's as simple as it gets. If you turn PWO on, then you can adjust it in various ways; if it's off, then you don't need to do anything.

Toke wrote:
22. Do you know what i mean by this?
I think you're talking about an accuracy problem with respect to turning; it manifests for example in inaccurate rockets on long range shots. Bond and CodeImp were talking about this some time ago. Is this the one you're talking about?

As for thanking me, you should not do that; we all do our best to make ZDaemon more enjoyable, and everyone does it in his own way. That's all.
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deathz0r
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Joined: 18 Apr 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
Toke wrote:
Door damage needs to removed aswell.
Can you please elaborate on this one?
I'll explain this one for Toke. What he's trying to say is that non-crushing doors (all standard Doom format doors for example) are able to damage the player client-side. Usually it only takes off 1 health, but certain doors (I have an old version of a UDM3 map that does this) can "squash" you and turn you into a corpse (client-side again).
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The Ultimate DooMer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It happens a lot with doors that close as soon as they've finished opening, eg. ZDCTF maps 06 and 14.
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The Ultimate DooMer
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
12. I've said it a million times already: it is about to get out of zdaemon and replaced by a preferred weapon order. The server will control if it wants to allow PWO on the clients; this should resolve any fairness issues.


Wouldn't have it been easier to make the server control the allowance of neverswitchonpickup instead of removing it altogether?

While it will solve the oldschool 1-on-1 fairness problem (which I believe is the main issue) by having the servers disallow it, the PWO isn't really going to solve the fairness issue on other servers, as some people will still leave it off and get disadvantaged. And for the rest it won't prevent auto-switching completely, as if you end up fighting 1-on-1 with a lower-ranked weapon you could still run over a higher weapon and lose out. (which could cost anything from the flag or a team score to the match or even a tourney - and there's nothing more annoying than losing in that manner)

My 2p. (and before anyone starts flaming me, I'm not anti-oldschool - I was just suggesting a method to satisfy both camps, if it was possible to implement)
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Toke
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah waoh waoh kilgore!

You cant possibly make weapon behavior a server option, we cant have weapons behaving differently on one server than they do on another, the rockets either need to be fixed or not.

only zdoom based ports have weapon functionality problems, zdoom strayed from the standard and thus zdaemon doesnt conform to the same standard as every other port ever made.

Zdoom, zdaemon and skulltag weapons work one way....

Doom2.exe, Doom95, Boom, CDoom, Doom Legacy, DOSDoom, EDGE, Eternity, JDP, MBF, MidDoom, PDoom, rorDoom, SMMU, Vavoom, TASdoom, ATB Doom, Doom Plus, Doom3D, DoomGL, Doomsday, glBoom, glDoom, IAS Doom, LsdlDoom, NTDoom, PrBoom, WDMP, Win32doom and WinDoom all follow a standard weapon functionality.

Why cant zdaemon follow the same standard 100% ?!?

I already talked to raider about it and he thinks we should follow the standard aswell..



Ultimate Doomer, there will be a server option to disable PWO and force everyone to use standard weapon switching.
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The Ultimate DooMer
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know. (that's why I posted the question above)

Toke wrote:
You cant possibly make weapon behavior a server option, we cant have weapons behaving differently on one server than they do on another, the rockets either need to be fixed or not.


Unfortunately that's such a big difference in behaviour it can only end in tears and really split the community if it was switched. Old-school rocket behaviour in servers running ZDoom-specific and CTF wads (ie. those based on the premise that actors are not infinitely tall) would be unrealistic and plain stupid, and would almost certainly piss everyone off who hasn't been playing DM since 1994.

Therefore it needs to be server-specific to allow the old style back into places that want it, but preserve the current style for everywhere else.
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