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Found secrets are not sent to recently connected players.
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Sr69Mm-jC
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Joined: 21 Jul 2011

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Found secrets are not sent to recently connected players. Reply with quote

I don't know if developers are aware of this issue but I fairly checked the whole changelog, all bug report subforums and requests subforums and haven't found it anywhere.
I'm not even sure if it's a bug, maybe it's some kind of a feature. I'm sorry for creating the topic if this was intended.

Whenever a new player connects to a server he will always see 0 secrets found unless some other players were inside secret sectors at the moment of connection.

This player can also re-find the secrets which were actually already found. "A secret has been found!" message would appear for him and his secret counter would be increased but it won't affect any other players. So counters are kind of individual and this causes confusion on intermission screens.

As for test map.. Well, just pick doom2 map01.
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a bit of a puzzle there, as in "what's the most suitable behavior for multiplayer". Are secrets "shared" or on a "per player" basis? right now, it's the latter; we could change that if we want, but do we?
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that having shared - communal - secrets makes more sense, logically. After all, you do not force all players to all have to individually find their way to the exit, do you? Laughing
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is something that has also bothered me. When I actually first saw this in the scoreboard, I was like "cool!" because logically I interpreted it as all secrets found by all players. I was rather disappointed when I found out this wasn't the case.

To be honest, it makes no sense to display this on the scoreboard if it's a property of the client only. Information that does not reflect all players shouldn't appear here, in my opinion.

That said, I too, would like to see this as being a "communal secret count". We already have a "personal secret count" found in the automap.
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EarthQuake wrote:
To be honest, it makes no sense to display this on the scoreboard if it's a property of the client only. Information that does not reflect all players shouldn't appear here, in my opinion.

Werd.

So, how about displaying both? The player's very own 'secret score' can show on automap, while the cumulative total shows on the scoreboard?
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dewww
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afaik vanilla lets you trigger secret tags just once globally even in coop and the percentage is split accordingly on the intermission screen. i can't verify it easily, but some old compet-n coop demos seem to work that way.
the boom-style smart hud in prboom+ shows secrets triggered by each player and a total, like this: 2+0+1 3/5. i guess that's a little redundant for zdaemon's needs though.
of course vanilla doesn't let you join mid-game, but a global counter makes more sense, imo.
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
afaik vanilla lets you trigger secret tags just once globally even in coop and the percentage is split accordingly on the intermission screen. i can't verify it easily, but some old compet-n coop demos seem to work that way.


Yes, this is true. The acquisition of secrets is a global thing. Two players cannot uncover the same secret and get credit for it. The secret percentages for each player add up to 100% or less. Here's a video: notice how both players get the secret, but only the first gets credit (rewind to watch).
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the "A secret is revealed!" msg? does it show only for the guy who found it or for everyone?
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dewww
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
What about the "A secret is revealed!" msg? does it show only for the guy who found it or for everyone?

well, there's no msg or sound notification in vanilla at all, secrets were silent and only showed in the final tally. the notification is a zdoomism, afaik. :) however pr+ adapted it and shows the msg only for the player who activated the secret tag. a global sound would probably cause confusion.
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Sr69Mm-jC
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
What about the "A secret is revealed!" msg? does it show only for the guy who found it or for everyone?

It might really confuse some players by showing this message when someone else found a secret.
Besides, showing the message to everyone is a change which players have to get used to. However, if you do not change it it would be just a minor bug fix which only a few players would notice.
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, I hate that message. Still waiting for a cvar to turn it off. :p

If a map doesn't have any secrets, but the author wants a player to be able to get 100% secrets, it's common to mark the starting sector with the secret flag to accomplish this. Then you start up the map and "A secret is found!"

What? Secret? Where?!
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fx02
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just show message when secret is found "fx02 found a secret (2/4)"

next one would be "dewww found a secret (3/4)" etc

And when I mean a message, then it should be a standard message, not centered on the screen or something like that...
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dewww
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's actually a very reasonable solution
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it too, with one modification: I'd say the guy who finds the secret gets the centered message (A secret is revealed) and the others get a small message like "fx02 found a secret". The secret sound goes out to everyone (including the one who finds it of course). Would you like that guys?

As for EQ's CVAR, phenex had an idea: instead of a CVAR that only very few people will use, how about if we stop showing such messages about secrets if the secret is found in the first couple of seconds since spawn? this will handle the situation that EQ described, while still showing the normal messages (which are quite useful IMHO).
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Krawa
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds great. A good mix of all requests.
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dewww
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
As for EQ's CVAR, phenex had an idea: instead of a CVAR that only very few people will use, how about if we stop showing such messages about secrets if the secret is found in the first couple of seconds since spawn? this will handle the situation that EQ described, while still showing the normal messages (which are quite useful IMHO).

i'd be careful with this. some maps have legit secrets very close to starting position, a common gimmick is to put a secret behind the "arrival" door. in plutonia revisited map24 you find one just by pressing backwards and for example the shotgun secret in doom2 map10 is reachable under... uh, 5 seconds too. the CVAR solution is more robust, imo.
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Sr69Mm-jC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
I like it too, with one modification: I'd say the guy who finds the secret gets the centered message (A secret is revealed) and the others get a small message like "fx02 found a secret". The secret sound goes out to everyone (including the one who finds it of course). Would you like that guys?

Sounds good.

dewww wrote:
i'd be careful with this. some maps have legit secrets very close to starting position, a common gimmick is to put a secret behind the "arrival" door.

How about counting player's coordinates after spawn rather than seconds? I mean, if a player starts in a sector marked as a secret I believe he only needs to move a little bit in any direction to trigger it. Maybe disable the messages if the secret was found on the very first step taken after spawn?

This would also prevent the game from showing the message if player did not immediately move after spawning. It might be confusing that you might or might not receive the message depending on how quickly you started to move after spawning.

dewww wrote:
in plutonia revisited map24 you find one just by pressing backwards

Is one single such case a valid reason to discard the feature entirely? That's a question here..
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
As for EQ's CVAR, phenex had an idea: instead of a CVAR that only very few people will use, how about if we stop showing such messages about secrets if the secret is found in the first couple of seconds since spawn? this will handle the situation that EQ described, while still showing the normal messages (which are quite useful IMHO).


This won't work. The sector marked doesn't necessarily have to be the one the player starts in. It just has to be a sector that the player must pass through. I've seen it at exit rooms, for instance.
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phenex2
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok in this case the 'unexpected' secret message is not 'fixable'. there is nothing we can do if mappers misuse the secret just to fix the intermission counter. i don't want to break the secret message feature just to accommodate 0.001% of all SP wads.

we will simply add a CVAR so people with an OCD can disable the message Razz.

now regarding the shared secret message and all it seems that the best is to do the following. the player who finds the secret gets the message and sound, the others just get a 'normal' message (not centered) on top.

i moved this to feature request btw since we will probably be changing the whole secret logic in c/s mode as it seems.
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dewww
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like this solution, it allows a vanilla-like option and a fixed modern one.

if you want to be really thorough, you could make the CVAR integer and add an option to disable just the sound and keep the message. :)
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