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Force respawn and death limit in tourneys
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Devisin
On a Rampage!


Joined: 30 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simply saying that continuing respawn delays will cause a disqualification will just lead to further debates about the limit- so let's just set it. When it comes to tactics, I don't see why you would want more than like 15 seconds for tactical(mindgame) reasons. Of course, patience is an endurance factor when you competete, but delaying spawns >20 seconds is remarkable; it's a game and has a value called gameplay, it's not an astronauts mental test. If you have the patience for it, at least use it in game and not compete who can jack off longest time.
It's not a rule to punch those who have the patience and fine mindgame in the stomach, then why not disallow camping too; because when you're not respawned in 20 seconds it's an ugly annoy, much like integrating text spamming in the gameplay. Then imo, there should be integrated respawn forcing in the gameplay, however without ignoring the fact patience is a PART of winning, but if you're a "big superstar-player" why would you want to wait a stupid big dose of time? shitting on the gameplay imo.

Therefore a number more than 8 secs, and less than 20 secs to auto-respawn sounds fair to me. Also if problems occur that might consume the time to cross the limit why is it a problem to give a message?
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not going to even bother reading all the crap here, but I will say this:

Don't change anything. I don't care if people take half a second to respawn or 40 seconds. Since spawnkilling is a huge part of DM, the act of respawning is random in itself. With that being said, if I was in that situation, I would be in love with him for doing that. The longer it takes for my opponent to spawn is more time I'm given to perfectly position myself to spawn rape in it's best position.

For example, d5m7: it won't work, period. Since most people play in NS settings, you can hear every spawn in the entire map if you sit right in front of the middle sector in the map. You're not pissing me off, you're not throwing me off--you're giving me time to set to launch off a massive spawn rape.

So yeah, cry about it all you want. It does suck when people take that kind of time, but when they do, leave. If someone wants to spend 2 minutes in between each spawn, I won't be their opponent for very long because I'm not engaging myself in that kind of match. If it was a tournament match then I'd only have myself to be mad at since I knew the possibilities when I signed up for it.

In closing: yeah it fucking sucks, but get over it. You don't want to deal with it? Don't play those type of people then.
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Quiksilver
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Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Location: Portlandia, Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperNova wrote:
Not going to even bother reading all the crap here, but I will say this:

Don't change anything. I don't care if people take half a second to respawn or 40 seconds. Since spawnkilling is a huge part of DM, the act of respawning is random in itself. With that being said, if I was in that situation, I would be in love with him for doing that. The longer it takes for my opponent to spawn is more time I'm given to perfectly position myself to spawn rape in it's best position.

For example, d5m7: it won't work, period. Since most people play in NS settings, you can hear every spawn in the entire map if you sit right in front of the middle sector in the map. You're not pissing me off, you're not throwing me off--you're giving me time to set to launch off a massive spawn rape.

So yeah, cry about it all you want. It does suck when people take that kind of time, but when they do, leave. If someone wants to spend 2 minutes in between each spawn, I won't be their opponent for very long because I'm not engaging myself in that kind of match. If it was a tournament match then I'd only have myself to be mad at since I knew the possibilities when I signed up for it.

In closing: yeah it fucking sucks, but get over it. You don't want to deal with it? Don't play those type of people then.


d5m7 with Hatred, good times. I think I got a nosebleed once from all the spawn flashing I saw form how many times I respawned and died in the same 2 milliseconds.

I somewhat concur with the spawnkiller above me says, but not all maps can be played that way. Judas maybe. Dweller? Not so much. You can't spawn camp at that. I would say a good "tricked ya" respawn time is 3 seconds. Anything belw... well thats just gonna feel like normal., anything more than 6 seconds would feel boring. Like "why am I standing here for so long? When's he gonna spawn. Oh look, a potion respawned.... so why isn't my opponent respawning?......any day now...".

We play a fast paced game. Arguably in the top three fastest FPS games in existence. We don't "wait to respawn". This isn't counter strike. We develop things like "swingshots" to make quick work of enemy. I'd say if you wait TOO long, you'll mess up the momentum that still gives this old rusty game its edge. Ya dig?
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperNova wrote:
...Since most people play in NS settings...

well... no. europeans play in OS settings with silent spawns, so your opinion doesn't hold water even for d5m7. and the map has only one spawn that isn't visually controllable, so the only worse example would be shoot.

maybe you should read the thread and not just react to it's thread.
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turSKA
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Location: Vantaa, Finland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

20 seconds is a looong time in a duel. Just enable that timer and go sit still and watch that counter click for 20seconds. So I'd say force respawn would be nice somewhere between 6 and 12 seconds.

Suprnova, "don't change anything" ?. Like yanks didnt do anything to entryway for ZDDL Rolling Eyes
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
SuperNova wrote:
...Since most people play in NS settings...

well... no. europeans play in OS settings with silent spawns, so your opinion doesn't hold water even for d5m7. and the map has only one spawn that isn't visually controllable, so the only worse example would be shoot.

maybe you should read the thread and not just react to it's thread.


Then I suppose that leaves you with option number two then: don't play them. I don't really know you, Dew, but I imagine you've been around for some time now. The fact that you've been here that long and are just now complaining about it makes you look like a crybaby. This has probably been a "problem" for 16 years now, so most people have gotten over it, so should you. Don't be mad at it for happening in a tournament game either since you chose to enter it knowing this could be possible.

turSKA wrote:
Suprnova, "don't change anything" ?. Like yanks didnt do anything to entryway for ZDDL


Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Congrats on showing the entire world you are capable of reading 3 words. At any rate, yeah they changed the map, and I wasn't a big fan of it. But I suppose that's the difference between me and some of these Euros here. When something happens and it's out of my control, I don't cry about it, I make a decision to either be a part of it or don't and go from there. That's the option you have. If you don't like it, don't play it.
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, i will reiterate for you once again. zddl uses a 15 seconds force respawn. why are you advocating oldschool to me when americans haven't been using for years now?
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turSKA
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because he is a troll and a crybaby. Like most americans when euros are trying to have an intelligent discussion
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because it is part of the game. Yes, I am aware of what ZDDL uses, and I'm not exactly with it but nor am I against it. I understand either case, but again, we've known this to be an issue for how long? The fact that you're complaining about it now when there have already been things out there that have solved this problem makes no sense. There already is a solution and if you're not willing to go with then, then I don't know what to tell you.

So once again, I will reiterate, either take part in it or don't. It is entirely up to you.

turSKA wrote:
Because he is a troll and a crybaby. Like most americans when euros are trying to have an intelligent discussion


I seriously laughed out-loud. You calling somebody a crybaby is hilarious.
Anyway, I don't see what I've done that has qualified as "trolling" since all I've really done is put my opinion out there. In fact, I only made that harsh response towards you, because like a typical Euro, the first attempted insult you try to bring out is an American one. Don't post anymore, since after this comment, you can't possibly have anything worthwhile to add.


But yes Dew, in closing, you just have to either deal with it or go with the solution already put into play, even modify it. But as I noted, there's no point in making a thread about it when there's been a solution. And in the end, you ultimately have the choice to play these type of people or not. Yes, again, it sucks but that is how it's been for 16 years now. No dmflag modifications change the fact that in the end, you have the decision to either play them or not.
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turSKA
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a typical ignorant American comment again gj! But simply because "it has been the way it is for years now blabla" doesnt mean it can not evolve. Take NS settings for example. Why need for those settings because the OS had been around for years, you could have just chosen whether to play this game or not.

dewww is not the only one "whining" here. I think this matter is quite important and why this comes up now is because only lately it has been an issue in some of the tourney games. I'm all for forcing respawns.
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turSKA wrote:
What a typical ignorant American comment again gj! But simply because "it has been the way it is for years now blabla" doesnt mean it can not evolve. Take NS settings for example. Why need for those settings because the OS had been around for years, you could have just chosen whether to play this game or not.

dewww is not the only one "whining" here. I think this matter is quite important and why this comes up now is because only lately it has been an issue in some of the tourney games. I'm all for forcing respawns.


I don't really get you, turSKA. On one hand, you've been avid about keeping things in it's original form. You're taking a shot at me for the zddl map01 change, yet you're demanding a solution for this, such as force respawn, a new-school addition. And I'm the ignorant one here? I'll take that, I suppose. At least in the end, I can say I'm not a hypocrite.

And as I stated above, what more do you want? Seriously. The ZDDL put something into play here with that timer, why can't you? Or force respawn as well, but either way there have been solutions. If you're not satisfied with either of those, then I can see a point in making this thread. But honestly, I don't see any other options as a solution. So yeah, I'll be the "ignorant American" here, I suppose. You just have to deal with it.
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 10 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperNova, you're right about you being the ignorant American in this topic. The fact that you enter a topic saying 'Not going to even bother reading all the crap here' underlines this perfectly.

It is not about the fact that there is a solution to this problem already and thus we can use it. Dew wanted to discuss the problem with its current solution and he wanted to hear what other people think it and what their thoughts are on actually using this in tourneys. Since Dew is one of the tourney admins in Europe I think it's good he tries to discuss stuff and not just puts it in the tourney saying: deal with it or dont play.

So please next time either read before posting or dont post at all.
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HumanBones
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Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Location: Shangri-La Dee Da

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should rephrase what I said earlier: I don't think forcing respawn is a horrible idea, I just don't like it. These days, I don't get many newer players involved in tournaments anyway, and those are the ones I'd suspect to act like jackasses the most.

I'm not opposed to something like 45 - 60 seconds, but 20 seems a little short to me. I've been playing without forced respawn on for years, and I've never had an issue with someone about waiting a little bit to spawn. It's all strategy in my mind, just the way I learned to play I guess.
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LordBritish
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: Britannia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turSKA wrote:
Because he is a troll and a crybaby. Like most americans when euros are trying to have an intelligent discussion


That was pretty uncalled for.

I've been reading this thread for awhile, but I never posted because it really doesn't concern me much. I don't often enter tournaments, and when I do I usually bow out in the first round anyway. However, for the sake of throwing ideas out there, I'll say my thing.

I just loaded up a BFG with 600 cells and fired into a wall until it was empty. It took about 18 seconds. I also opened up the console, typed "chat_block spec", closed the console, went into my mouse settings and turned the sensitivity up a little. This took about 10 seconds (with a typo involved). So I think a 20 second respawn timer is perfectly reasonable. You should have plenty of time to adjust your settings, avoid bfg, catch your breath, take a bite of your sandwich, turn on your hax, or whatever it is that you need to do. Conversely, it also gives the player controlling the spawns plenty of time to get in position, select his gun, and get ready to blast. This can also be beneficial to the person who is waiting for the respawn because, if they pay attention, and the spawner waits their full 20 seconds, then could even begin to bfg again(!) at about 18 seconds and insta-nuke the person as soon as they appear. This should be enough to discourage people from waiting the full 20 seconds and making the game last forever.

I don't expect this post to end the disagreement, especially coming from someone who barely even plays 1on1 competetively, but I hope it's something you can look at and see the reasoning behind it. I also hope you don't say mean things about me.
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Solar_Flare
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Joined: 01 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagle-Eye wrote:
10 seconds should work fine, if not too little? 12 seconds I'm thinking now.

Thadeuss wrote:
I think anything less than 20 seconds is unfair.

Gyrossman wrote:
I'd be okay with 10 seconds

Konar6 wrote:
just not less than 15-20 seconds please

Sniper wrote:
but I suppose 20-30 seconds sounds like a fair minimum to me.

SM*Dopefish wrote:
5 s

Solar_Flare wrote:
I say 15 seconds

WhiteKnight wrote:
40 seconds is nice!

Devisin wrote:
a number more than 8 secs, and less than 20 secs

HumanBones wrote:
20 seems a little short to me.

LordBritish wrote:
So I think a 20 second respawn timer is perfectly reasonable.

Well Dewww, these are the number you got, if you were trying to find a neutral line to where nobody would be bothered at, it seems to not exist at all. If anything you mind as well just set a limit and be done with it because if anything, this can go on forever and in any case, you're the one who will have to set it, and it will be up to the players to decided it they want to play in the tournament or not.
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for the lovely summary :)

i'm inclined to test deathlimit 20s. it shouldn't offend the pensive players, leaves a lot of time to play mind games or just avoid spawn spamming... there's even a short time to change your settings. on the other hand, no psyching the opponent with bullshit delaying. just ask him to wait a bit if you NEED to answer the phone or boot your mother from the room. we might get more experimental in the NS tourneys due to respawning items, or change the OS limit if it proves wrong.

my reasoning: none of the players taking part in the euro tournaments seem against the idea, so i took the.. uhh, median value of their propositions. and i'm against the idea of disqualifying people who'd time out to spectator mode, because why oh why making them lose the match instead of just forcing them into playing. if they wants to forfeit, they should say so.
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, holy shit! Apparently I am Europe's most disliked American doomer after those posts!

So yeah, I said what I said and I stand by it. I don't see why I have to repeat myself a million times on the matter. But, for your sake, I will one last time:

The solution has already been put into play for awhile now. Two options have been forced respawn and a time limit to force the respawn. Both methods have proved greatly effective against this "strategy." The only thing at this point that can be done is modify the time difference and go from there.

As I stated though, I don't think it is a problem:

Deww: earlier you pointed at that even in OS settings, d5m7 will have deaf spots no matter where you position yourself. That is not true.

If you position yourself by the middle sector of the map, facing the spawn that is silent and shows no animation, you can hear the 3 spawns behind you (the two spawns across from each other in the corners and the exit spawn) while you can also visualize the other 3 spawns. The middle one as I mentioned and the 2 other corner spawns. So yeah, even if they take 40 minutes to spawn, they've done nothing but give me time to perfectly set myself for spawn rape.

Map01, it's pretty simple there since you can do the math on that one. When someone spawns in the hallway, by the plasma gun or by the cg, you can either see or hear all of those. If you don't see or hear any of those take place, you know he could have only spawned in one other spot: the ledge. No, you won't hear when he actually spawns, but you'll hear the "umph" he makes when he jumps from the ledge down to the bfg area. So yeah, again, nothing but time to perfectly set and wait for spawn rape.

D5m1, yeah I can somewhat see this being a problem. You can't exactly hear all spawns take place, so you are somewhat forced to guess on this one. Although, I would say that out of the 4/5 major maps, delayed spawning is probably at it's best in this map due to it's size and placing of spawn spots.

I didn't really test Judas out because I don't know it well enough to make a good point on. But I do know there are parts of the map where you can't hear the spawns, or at least given the position of the spawn spots, I would say there is potential for it not to be heard.

But yeah, this post is kind of a follow up to answer dew's original post about my statement not holding any water or something like that.
I don't know what I really said that got all of you euro's so butt-hurt, but obviously it was enough to provoke you to take 20 minutes out of your day to throw out "yank/ignorant american" lines out there. If it's the term "crybaby," then I think some of you really should get a better grasp of the English language because believe me, there are much worse things that could be said.

So yeah, since it's such an issue that this loud, ignorant American comes in here disrupting "euros trying to have an intelligent discussion," I suppose I'll back-off. But hey, I never meant to offend anyone!
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Quiksilver
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Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Location: Portlandia, Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turska, you don't know "the typical american". Using that as an insult makes you look like a redneck racist. If you lived in "typical" America you would know that not everyone in America have the same opinions. In fact I'd say the "typical" american is pretty accepting of other cultures. Please refrain from using broad and generalized insults about a people you obviously know little about.

Carry on. Very Happy
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dewww
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hatred, i don't disagree with your analysis, BUT that's just the classic 4 maps... everyone knows those. in the tourneys however, we pick less known, underrated, forgotten or new maps A LOT. that means far less map knowledge and higher sensitivity to dirty tricks. that is not a sign of skill, that is abusing people's willingness to play on 'the unknown'. go on and write me a tactical analysis on, let's say, fuloser. or ikbrowny. can you?
since i organize the tourneys here in europe, it's not just about me being a crybaby whining he got whopped. i care a fucking lot about not repulsing people who might potentionally join, but won't, because they'd have to endure a completely unenjoyable test of patience that has nothing to do with playing.

well... here's another idea. we might just estimate the appropriate deathlimit when we select the map each month. it'd be announced in the initial info post and...
SuperNova wrote:
either take part in it or don't. It is entirely up to you.
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SuperNova
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
hatred, i don't disagree with your analysis, BUT that's just the classic 4 maps... everyone knows those. in the tourneys however, we pick less known, underrated, forgotten or new maps A LOT. that means far less map knowledge and higher sensitivity to dirty tricks. that is not a sign of skill, that is abusing people's willingness to play on 'the unknown'. go on and write me a tactical analysis on, let's say, fuloser. or ikbrowny. can you?
since i organize the tourneys here in europe, it's not just about me being a crybaby whining he got whopped. i care a fucking lot about not repulsing people who might potentionally join, but won't, because they'd have to endure a completely unenjoyable test of patience that has nothing to do with playing.

well... here's another idea. we might just estimate the appropriate deathlimit when we select the map each month. it'd be announced in the initial info post and...
SuperNova wrote:
either take part in it or don't. It is entirely up to you.


Yes, Dewww it is true that every map is different. But what you must understand, even in the event where you do visualize all spawns and are able to hear the others, there are still other dirty tricks that can be utilized.

Fuloser, for example, has an exit door that is activated from both sides. You can do essentially the same thing with this feature in a map as you could with delaying spawns forever. Whenever someone tries to open it, they could simply stand nearby and close it as soon as it happens. Map01 falls into that sort of deal, too, as well as the ledge. Someone can simply spawn there and not move from it at all.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that not only can these "dirty tricks" be utilized with delaying spawns, there are also other methods. At which point, what do you do then? We can go back and fourth on this all day, but honestly, it will come down to the player in the end. If the player wants to utilize those kind of tactics, then there is just about nothing that can be done to stop it. Sure at least you'd stop spawns, but then he'd figure something else out.

It isn't exactly the cleanest way of doing things, but it is part of the game, sadly. Trying to change the dynamics alone to prevent this doesn't do anything but take certain aspects of the game away. I know how annoying it can be, I've had my fair share of competitive matches over the last 6 years.

And I certainly don't envy your position as a tournament admin in this situation, but sometimes players just have to accept it as it is and elect to participate or not. If you know a player who is known for doing this for the sake of being a prick, do not allow him to enter in future tournaments. I think it's safe to say that Euros, Czech especially, are still fairly active in the duel scene. So by going to those lengths or even doing nothing at all, I doubt you'd lose much activity.
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