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Force respawn and death limit in tourneys
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dewww
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:05 am    Post subject: Force respawn and death limit in tourneys Reply with quote

Delaying the respawns. Apparently, it's a tactic that wins games... but recently, it's becoming a griefing tactic to annoy the shit out of your opponent. Some players will take ages to spawn if they feel they are in danger of spawnrape and it's starting to be unbearable.

I understand some waiting inbetween spawns is a long time tactic of Doom, especially with it's unique gameflow, but it's sick and below the waist to fuck with your opponent for 15 or 20s just to unnerve him and throw him out of his pace. Just yesterday, in a game for a small czech map01 league, I had to wait for my opponent 45s, which was Oblacek's deathlimit, then he went to spectator and still wouldn't spawn. I forfeited the match angrily. There's just no excuse. Can't play, something's wrong? Just SAY so, we're not yanks, we stop at 'hold' or 'sec'.

All the other games use forcerespawn, ZDDL uses it and I intend to use it in Euro tourneys aswell. The question is - how long should the deathlimit be (the time after which the game forces you to spawn)?

ZD standard is 180s, Oblacek standard is 45. I thought about using 10s for tourneys, but according to some, it's still too long. What do you think?
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patience is a virtue, some players need to keep composure. But, that said, I do see your point. Maybe a 7/8 second limit would be sufficient? Sometimes I take a quick break during a frag to switch my mouse settings or something, so having time for that is necessary.

Infact, thinking about it more, 10 seconds should work fine, if not too little? 12 seconds I'm thinking now. Mainly because of the point I mention above, players would rarely need a slightly longer time to change something as important as mouse settings or something bugging them in the background - They know it won't take too long so there's no need to ask your opponent to wait, wouldn't want to make them relax now would we? Wink
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Thadeuss
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think anything less than 20 seconds is unfair. Stalling spawning is part of the game.
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Gyrossman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be okay with 10 seconds, as it was working pretty well in ZDDL and from time to time you simply want to take a while to drink a water (or wine, if you're dew) or scratch balls (if you're dew) or whatever, while you're dead and ten seconds is enough to do that. Anyway, delaying spawns sure is a part of strategy but c'mon, what's the difference if you'll wait 5 or 20 seconds?
Of course, the main question is, do you want to throw your opponent's timing or just piss him off?
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dewww
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm unsure about the time, that's why i'm asking. actually, someone emptying his bfg on map01 or judas can take up to 15 or 20 seconds and sure, it's not very wise to spawn into the hitscan rays.

zddl had 15s deathlimit and it worked, so considering we're more conservative.. uh, 20? :)
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spacepirate
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be a succesful Doom 1on1 players you should have
1. good aim
2. good movement
3. know your oponent
4. PATIENCE/control your emotions

It is really a BIG part of being a very good superstar player. If your pissed, or don't have patience, well then you do not deserve to be a tournament winner.

I say change NOTHING. Dewww it really looks like your losing Razz
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Konar6
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gyrossman wrote:
Of course, the main question is, do you want to throw your opponent's timing or just piss him off?

Even if you lower it to say, 10 sec, your opponent still can choose to piss you off by delaying all his spawns by 9 seconds.



The ideal system would be having fair players with no intention to annoy the shit out of the opponent, as I don't see a problem with delaying one or a few spawns in a game by considerable amount of time to disorder your opponent's spawnrape flow. And I believe we all can do a fair-play and don't need any forcing tools to help us achieve it, eh? Razz

If we have players abusing free (not forced) respawns, they should be addressed specifically. I imagine being forcibly thrown right into your opponent's BFG shot would suck; some players could even build their strategy on this, especially on low setting such as 7 seconds knowing when the opponent is going to respawn.

While I think this "forced respawn" setting would work very well in FFA, it's more of a spoil in 1on1.

However, I don't know how many players are actually capable of playing fair-play regarding this subject, but if the admins feel they are outnumbered by the "bad" ones, I'll support introducing forced respawns in tourneys - just not less than 15-20 seconds please, agreeing with Nero and spacepirate there. Smile
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spacepirate
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Annoy the shit out of the player or trying to get off his game is the most beatiful thing in a game. This way a worse players but with a better mind or more patience can still win.

What the hell do you want to give the solid players with solid aim and no patience or too much ego give an extra advantage??? It's just stupid.

STOP GETTING ACES, THE MAXIMUM OF PLAYING ACES IS NOW 5 TIMES ON A NIGHT.

Really?? Rolling Eyes

If you can't handle the game, don't play it. If you do get pissed off, your a bad player.
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dewww
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacepirate wrote:
If you can't handle the game, don't play it. If you do get pissed off, your a bad player.

i guess that's why you never play anything. now stop being all philosphical. either give ingame examples for your reasoning or stop trolling a thread that doesn't even concern you.
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Sniper
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konar6 wrote:
The ideal system would be having fair players with no intention to annoy the shit out of the opponent, as I don't see a problem with delaying one or a few spawns in a game by considerable amount of time to disorder your opponent's spawnrape flow. And I believe we all can do a fair-play and don't need any forcing tools to help us achieve it, eh? Razz


I'd like to express my thoughts on this.

I think everyone in this thread so far has agreed that timing your respawns is an essential tactic of a good duel player. Talk of 9, 10, 12 second limits on the time you can stay dead sounds ridiculous to me. Nobody has the right to tell you how to play this game, and every player deserves the right to respawn when they see fit.

I agree that it can be frustrating if you are on the receiving end of this tactic, but the frustration shows what an effective method it is, throwing your opponents momentum off track being the key result. I wouldn't like to change the 45 second limit, but I suppose 20-30 seconds sounds like a fair minimum to me. But my point still stands that an 'each to their own' policy should apply here. Next we'll be telling our opponents off for using too much BFG Wink
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dewww
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sniper wrote:
I agree that it can be frustrating if you are on the receiving end of this tactic, but the frustration shows what an effective method it is, throwing your opponents momentum off track being the key result.

the thing is... this is a doom specific tactic. modern games force respawns, afaik. quake live does for sure. i don't want to remove it, but taking it to the extreme is just exploiting the shortcomings of the old doom. zdaemon HAS the features to counter it, so clearly, we can use a more modern approach.

Sniper wrote:
I wouldn't like to change the 45 second limit, but I suppose 20-30 seconds sounds like a fair minimum to me.

that's a bit of a misunderstanding here. 45s limit is the default limit for oblacek servers, because firestone set it up that way. i haven't studied lap, horizon or any other euro server, but since the default is 180, i believe they don't use that particular number. hell, if you set the deathlimit to 0, it won't do anything at all.
and there's more - i'm talking about forcing spawns, but that has to be set up by a specific dmflag that isn't very common, at least not in europe. here, the player reaching the deathlimit won't forcespawn, he will go into spectator mode. that's pretty passive, isn't it?

i agreed 10s is too low, i realized there's way too many situations it'd be restrictive. but 20s is already reaching the limit where the player controlling the map runs out of the 'spawn spam' ammo, and the dead player is simply being a smartass. 30s? uhhhh. 45s?! fuck off.

Sniper wrote:
But my point still stands that an 'each to their own' policy should apply here. Next we'll be telling our opponents off for using too much BFG :wink:

well. if i set the server to force respawn and 20s deathlimit, the only thing you can do against it is to not sign up to the tournament, so that's VERY different from telling you to not use too much bfg :P
i understand there's a drive to keep the game 'pure', but look at the rest of the world - whenever someone discovers a way to abuse a weak point of some game, a patch is released to nerf it. and we already have means to counter it. kilgore even told me he was surprised no one used that dmflag for past... 4 years. i am trying to reach a consensus here, but pardon me if i don't believe you and thadeuss are the representatives of the doom2.exe purity. :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
But 20s is already reaching the limit where the player controlling the map runs out of the 'spawn spam' ammo, and the dead player is simply being a smartass.


That's the whole idea Very Happy

We shouldn't be trying to dictate how people respawn, we should possibly be trying to find a fair point in the middle where people party to both sides of this discussion are happy with the result. I say possibly for the simple reason that this has never been raised as an issue before as far as I'm aware, and therefore should not become one now just because someone is unhappy with a game they've just played.
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cha0tix
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
Delaying the respawns. Apparently, it's a tactic that wins games... but recently, it's becoming a griefing tactic to annoy the shit out of your opponent. Some players will take ages to spawn if they feel they are in danger of spawnrape and it's starting to be unbearable...

...All the other games use forcerespawn, ZDDL uses it and I intend to use it in Euro tourneys aswell....


Wait wha? You're PUNISHING the use of tactics?
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, very clearly Dewww is trying to gauge just where the line between 'tactic' and 'unprovoked annoyance' lies.

Say I have some tournament match scheduled for this month and I keep dodging my opponent until we're almost into March. Does this fall into the category of valid psychological warfare or is it something that should be strongly discouraged as it annoys everyone else that's playing? It's just plain disruptive and is a distraction rather than a tactic. Sure, some players might have come to rely on it but there's probably an equal number of players who would be happier about entering competitions if not for those guys.

I say enforce it, like they do in chess. Clearly differentiate it by calling it 'Speed Doom' and then no-one can complain Smile

dewww wrote:
and we already have means to counter it. kilgore even told me he was surprised no one used that dmflag for past... 4 years

I know how the behaviour of 'Force Respawn' started out but it was my impression that it had been quickly neuteured so all it now does is boots you to spectator status.
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No it can still force the player to spawn
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Graim
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't a simple rule solve the problem? Just say that players can't delay the game and thats it.

Because every forced respawn timelimit unless a very high one brings in some difficulties (as many of you pointed out above)

I'd call 'delaying the game' anything when players stay dead for no reason i.e. the opponent is not spamming the spawn-points or doing enything else so that it would be stupid to spawn in. If you are standing in the best strategic spot waiting for your opponent to respawn and nothing happens, then its delaying. The dead guy just can't expect his opponent to go in the farmost point of the map, turn and look into the corner and wait there.

This may look difficult to judge where is the limit, but it still looks easier to me than finding an appropriate timelimit for forcerespawn which is clearly impossible Wink
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cha0tix
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cybershark wrote:
No, very clearly Dewww is trying to gauge just where the line between 'tactic' and 'unprovoked annoyance' lies.

Say I have some tournament match scheduled for this month and I keep dodging my opponent until we're almost into March. Does this fall into the category of valid psychological warfare or is it something that should be strongly discouraged as it annoys everyone else that's playing? It's just plain disruptive and is a distraction rather than a tactic. Sure, some players might have come to rely on it but there's probably an equal number of players who would be happier about entering competitions if not for those guys.


Right, so you're connecting pre-match buffoonery (which would result in a DQ in almost any tourney) to in-game strategy.

Can I get a valid explanation for this from someone who knows what they're talking about?
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dewww
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well... that particular paragraph might be describing another issue, but just based on that, you are refusing shark's whole post. he's right, i'm trying to find the border between tactical delaying (to avoid spawnrape, to take a deep breat, to quickly change some setting, whatever) and trying to get your opponent mad by excessive stalling.

i don't understand the resolute statements that it is a valid long standing tactic. since when? i don't remember seeing a demo of any good oldschool players take fucking forever to spawn. other games don't let you do it. even better - chow, what is your angle here? zddl uses 15 second force respawn timer and i haven't seen anyone rising voice about it. right now, total trash d6m1 tourney server also forces the 15s respawn. it seems north america is already using what i'm talking about in here, so your dissent in particular seems weird.
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
i'm trying to find the border between tactical delaying (to avoid spawnrape, to take a deep breat, to quickly change some setting, whatever) and trying to get your opponent mad by excessive stalling.


But doesn't this only apply to the opponent? I can camp on King/d5m1/Judas/map01 in the same spot waiting - I don't mind too much, if anything it can be good to know your opponent is trying silly tactics to put you off, he's not so confident in his own game that way Wink
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cha0tix
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
well... that particular paragraph might be describing another issue, but just based on that, you are refusing shark's whole post.


The next bit was a misunderstanding of what "force respawn" does. I don't think I missed anything. Wink

Quote:
he's right, i'm trying to find the border between tactical delaying (to avoid spawnrape, to take a deep breat, to quickly change some setting, whatever) and trying to get your opponent mad by excessive stalling.


I think its dumb that your experience in a duel has led to creating a new "Forced respawn" rule. Its pretty much "I don't like this, so I'm having it my way." Why not have a poll up?

Quote:
i don't understand the resolute statements that it is a valid long standing tactic. since when? i don't remember seeing a demo of any good oldschool players take fucking forever to spawn. other games don't let you do it.


Hilarious coming from an EXE campaigner.

Quote:
even better - chow, what is your angle here?


My angle here is that because you get frustrated at something in a duel, it shouldn't give you the incentive to make rules to change people's gameplay. Personally, your raging shouldn't equal rule changes.

Quote:
zddl uses 15 second force respawn timer and i haven't seen anyone rising voice about it. right now, total trash d6m1 tourney server also forces the 15s respawn. it seems north america is already using what i'm talking about in here, so your dissent in particular seems weird.


Its not threaded (as far as I know), and I don't have pull on TT servers. Do I think its dumb? Yes. If there was a thread that I missed I would have more than likely posted.

I wonder whats next. Use BFG only X amount of times? Forced PWO (if not already!)?
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