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New Tournament/League... What Style???
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What Would You Like To See?
1. New Flags (Mouselook/Jumping) and New Maps
40%
 40%  [ 9 ]
2. Same Flags, 5 New Maps!
59%
 59%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 22

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Thadeuss
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice you opened this up to the public Dev.

SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC:

I have one suggestion and I think it's a must.

GET RID OF PLAYOFFS! If it's a league format everyone should play everyone else, the top player winning. It seems silly to me that players have to then play people again, when they have already beaten them. We were in a situation in ZDDL where players coming 8th in the league could then still go on and win it in the playoffs. For me it's only there to give people a second chance, but the best player in a league should be able to do it once.

ON TOPIC: IMO Map01, d5map01 and D5map07 shoul always be included. Don't let these non map01 players try and change that, these maps have always been a great measure of skill. Judas would be a close 4th.

What you could do is have those 4 maps as a must play with a 5th map selected from say 5 optional maps (with players eliminating 4).

I suggest if you wanted to run a sort of pre season ZDDL league with NS flags and a smaller number of maps, but all new ones then you would get probably at least 2 leagues for that.

So I would vote for none of the above :p
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

judas > d5m7
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Consigliori
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't aware there were any maps other than Judas...
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DevastatioN
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Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Thad thanks for that reply.

I intended this as a separate league to ZDDL called ZDDL-R (or ZDDL Redux or something).

I consider Judas as the 3rd map, and d5m7 as a close 4th. I like your idea for a 5th map, that may not be bad, but I think that would cause some issues that say, a map pool of 7 would resolve, but it's an idea we will clearly talk about.

As for playoffs, it's really how a standard league is run. It does give players a second chance, but this is why it's seeded. 8th place should be no where near 1st place unless there was some major issues during the seasons that caused inaccurate data. Also, it gives players a chance to put all they've learned into play in the playoffs.

ZDDL-R would have avery different format however because it would not be broken by skill division. There would be a certain amount of people in group stage say 8 divisions. Top2 or Top3 from each division move on to the finals, generally you play other from other divisions first... but you can still meet the same people closer to the finals. (For instance, if the top2 players managed to be unlucky and get placed in the same group, that 2nd place player could still fight through all the other divisions in the playoffs to meet the 1st place player again.)

Hope this clears some things up, and thanks for all the input!
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds to me like your better off just including new maps in regular ZDDL. i think thats a better choice then making a whole new leage just for new maps.
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Sniper
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZERO99 wrote:
sounds to me like your better off just including new maps in regular ZDDL. i think thats a better choice then making a whole new leage just for new maps.


This actually makes some sense.
I mean why does it have to be a different league? ZDDL doesnt have to be solely for the maps that everybody has been playing the most over the past 6 years. They change the racetrack in Formula 1, but they don't call it Formula-1 #2.

But in my opinion, a good doom player is consistent across a wide variety of maps and players with adequate skills should not be worried about the map choice. What better way to state your authority as a doom player by coming out on top in maps you are not familiar with? Map change is not an issue for me however I, like Thadeuss, think that the playoff idea should be reconsidered.
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SuperNova
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we're going to throw the format into discussion here, I'll put my two cents in:


For what it's worth, I think that having every player in each division play each other throughout the regular season is asking too much of the players.

For example, this year, in division 1, there were either 9 or 10 players (don't remember the exact count). Out of those 9/10 players, we were all scheduled to play each other. As great as that sounds in theory, the problem is that it doesn't play out too well in practice. That's too much time, and by the 6th or 7th game, you've pretty much got a set idea of who will be in the play-offs and who won't--especially when you consider the fact that there are 8 play-off spots and were only 9/10 players in that division. That means only one player out of 9(or 2/10) will miss the play-offs, in either case, making the later end of the regular season games mean nothing.


We can sit here and debate seeding back and forth all we want, but let's be real here: seeding in online gaming means nothing. It's not like you get a true home-field advantage out of it like you do in the NBA, NFL or NHL. When it boils down to it, you'll just play the best players first, which is the exact same thing you'd have to do sooner or later if you aspire to go all the way.

My belief is by cutting down the amount of regular season games, you'll make each game count for something giving players more incentive to play. Not only would I cut down the amount of regular season games, I'd cut down the amount of play-off spots as well.

What if we had only 6 playoff spots with 6 regular season games? No, not everyone plays everyone, but it makes the regular season games more interesting. It also makes every game count as one loss could be the difference of making the play-offs or not. This format will bring out parity, which quite frankly, in the last 3 seasons, there has been absolutely none to speak of. Which in my opinion, is a bad thing. People aren't interested in seeing the same results over and over done the same way. If the same results will still yield, the least one could do to make it more attractive is make every single game that is played count for something--which in the current format, they don't.

Are there disadvantages where one player may have a more intense schedule than another? Sure, but again, if you are the best player or even one of the best, this should not stop you from making the play-offs.
It's not exactly fair, but quite frankly, the best competitive leagues in the U.S are ran this way (NFL, NCAA FB, NCAA Basketball as examples).

The bottom line is this: the current format is not wrong, it simply needs some tweaking done. Not only should we want to make it more attractive to duel players alike, we also want to make it more interesting to view as both of these combined will increase general interest, and in theory, attract more players to this league and community--which is what we all should be hoping for.

So, to sum up my ideas on this:

Cut the amount of regular season games and randomly select a schedule for each division. Cut the amount of play-off spots so that each game in the league isn't meaningless. In a perfect world, if the amount of play-off spots is adequate to the number of players, then a tweak is not needed for the play-offs. But I still believe that no matter what, making everyone play everyone becomes too exhausting, and honestly after so many weeks, boring. I don't mean to offend anyone in particular about this. I think ZDDL is great and has been for the last 3 seasons. As I stated above, it's not my belief that it is completely off and needs a revolution, it is that it simply needs some tweaking to better suffice all interested parties.
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Thadeuss
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DevastatioN wrote:
Hey Thad thanks for that reply.

I intended this as a separate league to ZDDL called ZDDL-R (or ZDDL Redux or something).

I consider Judas as the 3rd map, and d5m7 as a close 4th. I like your idea for a 5th map, that may not be bad, but I think that would cause some issues that say, a map pool of 7 would resolve, but it's an idea we will clearly talk about.

As for playoffs, it's really how a standard league is run. It does give players a second chance, but this is why it's seeded. 8th place should be no where near 1st place unless there was some major issues during the seasons that caused inaccurate data. Also, it gives players a chance to put all they've learned into play in the playoffs.

ZDDL-R would have avery different format however because it would not be broken by skill division. There would be a certain amount of people in group stage say 8 divisions. Top2 or Top3 from each division move on to the finals, generally you play other from other divisions first... but you can still meet the same people closer to the finals. (For instance, if the top2 players managed to be unlucky and get placed in the same group, that 2nd place player could still fight through all the other divisions in the playoffs to meet the 1st place player again.)

Hope this clears some things up, and thanks for all the input!



Sounds awesome Dev, I really enjoyed zddl so I think doing another tourney before the next one with new maps would be great.

As for the playoffs, I still think they are unfair, BUT, I think it may be down to a cultural difference. Soccer is the main sport over here and there are no playoffs to decide who is champion, everyone plays everyone else and the winner takes all. Playoffs are used in Soccer for determining who comes 2nd and 3rd determining who gets promoted etc.

I think this might be the reason why I don't take to the idea of playoffs for no1 spot. But even if playoffs stay, ZDDL will still be great fun.
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