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Blocking DEHACKED patches from working

 
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Cybershark
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Blocking DEHACKED patches from working Reply with quote

Baah and I were discussing this last night after we saw some idiot running first Zombie Invasion and then X-noob_survival with superguns. The guy claimed that it was just for fun but there are plenty of other things he could run that crap on, rather than shitting all over projects which are trying something new and which haven't had chance to get popular on their own terms yet.

In addition to 'objections of taste' (which Baah pointed out could equally be leveled at me for some of the weirdness I run on ZDS) then there is the issue that both those WADs have their own DEHACKED in them which handles weapons, monster attributes, etc. As anyone who knows anything about stacking PWADs knows then loading something else with DEHACKED in it screws up all those settings, so all the host ended up providing was a clusterfuck of a server.

Now this issue has come up in the past many times. Worst even figured some ways of blocking mods from working, but they were quite hackish. In light of this latest idiocy Baah and I were talking about possible addition of some map lump (or a command in an existing lump) which would block loading of anything else. Kilgore chimed in with mention of a priority system too.

The problem with this is that authors cannot predict what will happen in the future of ZD. For instance the authors of ZDCTF may have thought at the time that their DEHACKED was perfect and that no-one should ever have reason to mess with it. Of course since then we had Vampire Mode introduced, and so when I wanted to run ZDCTF that way on a recent ZDS then it only made sense to create a new patch which removed health.

It's definitely a double-edged sword and so I'd really like to hear what other mappers think about the state of things and where we could/should go from here.
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TimeOfDeath
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just let those "idiots" run their servers just for fun and leave them alone?
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Ronald
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Blocking DEHACKED patches from working Reply with quote

Cybershark wrote:
Baah and I were discussing this last night after we saw some idiot running first Zombie Invasion and then X-noob_survival with superguns. The guy claimed that it was just for fun but there are plenty of other things he could run that crap on, rather than shitting all over projects which are trying something new and which haven't had chance to get popular on their own terms yet.


I think you've got it all nailed down here. People play wads the way they want to play them. They don't ask themselves if it was the intention of the author of the wad. They play it the way they think is fun. Whether that is with skins, superguns, oversized backpacks, 2x monster health/strength, it doesn't matter. The player decides in the end. And obviously, this can be different from the author's intention.

Cybershark wrote:
In addition to 'objections of taste' (which Baah pointed out could equally be leveled at me for some of the weirdness I run on ZDS) then there is the issue that both those WADs have their own DEHACKED in them which handles weapons, monster attributes, etc. As anyone who knows anything about stacking PWADs knows then loading something else with DEHACKED in it screws up all those settings, so all the host ended up providing was a clusterfuck of a server.


Yeah, but they'll try to run as they wish. If it turns out to be screwed over, the host will ragequit the server and will set up something else which does work with superguns or whatever it is they want instead.

Cybershark wrote:
Now this issue has come up in the past many times. Worst even figured some ways of blocking mods from working, but they were quite hackish. In light of this latest idiocy Baah and I were talking about possible addition of some map lump (or a command in an existing lump) which would block loading of anything else. Kilgore chimed in with mention of a priority system too.


So in other words: a lump/command that makes sure that you cannot play your wad using superguns for example? I don't see how this benefits to already existing maps and to the popularity of new wads. But sure, if the author really doesn't want another wad screwing up their DEHACKED, such a lump/command could be extremely useful. Although, I don't see myself using such a function in my wads.

Cybershark wrote:
The problem with this is that authors cannot predict what will happen in the future of ZD. For instance the authors of ZDCTF may have thought at the time that their DEHACKED was perfect and that no-one should ever have reason to mess with it. Of course since then we had Vampire Mode introduced, and so when I wanted to run ZDCTF that way on a recent ZDS then it only made sense to create a new patch which removed health.


I wouldn't really want to call this a problem. If authors feel the need to make adjustments to their released work, whether this DEHACKED related or not, the worst thing that can happen is that they have to make a re-release. Maybe not desirable in all situations, but this the worst thing that could happen from my point of view.
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Kruczyslaw
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Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Location: Abbadon, Poland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Blocking DEHACKED patches from working Reply with quote

Cybershark wrote:
Baah and I were discussing this last night after we saw some idiot running first Zombie Invasion and then X-noob_survival with superguns


Yeah I think i know who you are talking about......This person asked my why all monsters was gone (strange thing/bug Shocked ), but dont call him like that... His servers are just a bit eccentricity (in a wad choose meaning) but im not better )just look at my servers Wink
Ok I hope you know what i mean (my english sucks as always )
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeOfDeath wrote:
Why not just let those "idiots" run their servers just for fun and leave them alone?

Ok, that was obviously a well thought out response... How about you read what I wrote once again?
I wrote:
there are plenty of other things he could run that crap on, rather than shitting all over projects which are trying something new and which haven't had chance to get popular on their own terms yet.

I wrote:
As anyone who knows anything about stacking PWADs knows then loading something else with DEHACKED in it screws up all those settings, so all the host ended up providing was a clusterfuck of a server.


They are ruining the fucking maps here. Again, these are newer projects that people may not have seen before and the first impression they get of them is playing on a server like this? First impressions? Not good. Think of it this way - I own a private cinema and I want to start showing horror movies, but with the lights on. Should I have that right when it plainly goes totally contrary to all common sense and how the things should be seen?

Ok, in this guy's case then he apparently didn't realise and when someone talked him through it he took it down. So maybe what is required is a little more info in the server FAQ. Something along the lines of a simple 'Careful when running weapons mods as they may break stuff in the maps. If the game WAD has modified monsters or guns then it will probably not go well if you run another mod on top of it.'

Rinald wrote:
They don't ask themselves if it was the intention of the author of the wad. They play it the way they think is fun. Whether that is with skins, superguns, oversized backpacks, 2x monster health/strength, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, the problem is that breaks in gameplay are not always obvious. If I dehack my monsters to be stronger or relaced some decorative item with a new monster then it may not be apparent that something is amiss when someone runs a mod on it. And surely it'd be more fun with that new monster wouldn't it?

Runald wrote:
If authors feel the need to make adjustments to their released work, whether this DEHACKED related or not, the worst thing that can happen is that they have to make a re-release.

Ha ok, and what do you think the chances of getting a released ZDCTF would be? Laughing
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really think it's necessary to implement some workaround for this. I absolutely do understand where you are coming from, and it would piss me off as well seeing one of my projects being run on a server with superweapons fucking it up. The thing is, there is always going to be a way for players to modify a wad through loading another wad in conjunction with it. That's the way this whole system works. Patch wads patch wads.

There is a way to get around this:
  • Place a thing in your map, something arbitrary thats unused in the whole wad.
  • Add a patch to the wad that changes said thing to hang from the ceiling.
  • Create a script that checks if the thing hangs from the ceiling.
  • If the DeHackEd was replaced carelessly, the script will return a bad result, allowing you to notify players of this, and/or lock the map.
  • Use EXTRADEH includes after this thing definition to allow serious people to modify the wad at your discretion.


So yeah, not the best solution, but it proves that DeHackEd can actually be used to counteract the idiocy of others.
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GhoulSlayeR
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I can recall, Authors can put in a Terms of Usage within the .txt file, I think I heard around that Zdaemon Honors those Terms of usage, and will ban the servers off of the master if they don't abide by it.

That is, if I recall correctly
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phenex2
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course people will get a ban if they rerelease a modified wad
that dissalows this in the txt file. Excluding sensible changes that
for example let the wad work on zdaemon.

The main problem is that people release a new coop wad and
idiots host it with superguns. You can't really prevent this.
But then you run into danger to end up like the iu_part4b wads
where people got used to the superguns so much that they will
refuse to play it without them.

The suggested method here gives the author more direct power over his
wad and prevents people from running mods on top. If they want to mess
with the wad they would have to rerelease it and that would be a reason to ban them.

Still this method might give authors too much power if you think of what
gets hosted on the ZDS Wink
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZERO99 wrote:
even so its kinda a slap in the face to the mapper this wad is applyed too. they spent the time to place each weapon and make gameplay around them all and you took them all away.
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's like if I want to show some art in a gallery and without even really looking at it the gallery owner takes a steamping dump on it because they think it'll look better/attract more people.
Lol, Marax a bit

I'd just like for 'authors wishes' and 'creative control' to mean more around here.

phenex2 wrote:
Still this method might give authors too much power if you think of what gets hosted on the ZDS Wink

But yeah, then there's that too. And not just with ZDS - look at this month's Euro NS tourney which totally goes against Zero's point above.
I mean personally I consider that I try to improve upon - or at least offer a serious alternative to - everything I run with my choices of settings and mods, but of course not everyone would agree with that.


And I'm still not sure if this should be in WAD editing or the Dev forum.
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