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ZDDL Finalization, Are YOU Ready to Start?
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DevastatioN
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Joined: 31 Jul 2002
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Cybershark, since his post was actually ontopic to ZDDL anyway.

If you play Map1, I think you'd understand that a change is definitely neccesary.

The situation occurs, that a player who is camping outside, should not come inside because he will give away any advantage he may be able to obtain,.

The person inside should not go outside, because he may take damage, and even if he DOES get the frag, he no longer has respawn control, so he's giving up health, and respawn control, to MAYBE get a frag (not even guaranteed, he may get fragged as well).

This becomes a stalemate where neither play SHOULD move, the game can only continue if one player decides to play incorrectly. Now, in a serious competition between two good players, who are playing for money or heavy competition, neither player will move for hours.

This is a problem in a map, and also the map has been around so long and has the most indepth theory, it should stay most likely.

We can come to the conclusion that the map shiould NOT be tossed, but it CANNOT stay as it is, otherwise we cannot move ZDaemon forward in it's competitive aspect.

So, how do we fix it? You need to side with either the person inside, or outside, and well, the person inside really has a better position so we chose him. Maybe the fix isn't the best, but why not see how it plays out? No offense, but you're not extremely informed about Map1, and you most likely haven't even given it a chance to play, and chances are you haven't even tried working out the theory behind it.

The current method prevents camping from the outside, forcing the otuside person in, so it stops the stalemate, good! Now, unfortunately, people who go out their to grab the SG are hutr when they shouldn't be, this is bad. So we put a 5 second delay on the button, 5 seconds is actually enough time for someone to run out and run in without getting stuck.

And if you do get stuck? You can choose to take the damage, it's won't entirely kill you, it takes 4 button presses to fully kill you, so you still have time to fight your way in.

I'm not saying this is the best solution to fix it, cause I thnik there is a better way, but we are trying this method to see how it fares in tournaments. I'm not overly willing to change either, and I stand to hurt a lot in changing Map1 as well, since it is my best map. But I agreed to give it a chance, it unfortunately had to be done.

For all those who hate it, there are an equal number of players (who have played Map1) that say the change is fine, if you can think of ideas to fix the problem, but make everyone happy, we'd love to hear them.

(Note, the ledge change was obvious that it had to be done, and that's usually not the change anyone cares about, it's obvious because a person can sit at the chaingun for 5 hours and it's impossible to reach realistically.)
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ZERO99
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Joined: 23 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im pretty sure any changes to map01 ZDDL has made is in good taste, i would say a pretty decent fraction of the people running and or playing in this tournament are some of the best players in the world so who else would know gameplay better then mappers then the people who master the maps and play them at a top knotch level.
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Cybershark
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Truly I'm pleased to see such a progressive attitude but I just don't see that you can still refer to it as 'Entryway' when the mechanics have been altered in such manners. But whatever, maybe they can decide to throw some crushers into the blue room on DW5M1 for next season.

And yeah Dev, obviously no-one knows MAP01 like you - doesn't mean you need to act like quite such a condescending punk though. I know the map and understand it quite adequately thanks.
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DevastatioN
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Joined: 31 Jul 2002
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't trying to be an ass, but you really did just post "lol what kind of retard would do that to Map1?" without providing any kind of arguement.

Your latest post has a completely different stance than your first one, you come off at least willing to debate or discuss, the first one was pretty much an attack and run.

The blue room in d5m1 was brought up as potential problem, but it's really not broken at all I'm pretty sure.

The dynamics in Map1 have barely changed, in all my games in the new version it really hasn't changed much at all. I think I've only ever gotten into a switch position once a game? maybe twice, and they were the same result as if there was no switch.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to be a prick, was just pointing out quite a few things, and a bit of disgust towards how many posts are made saying it's stupid, dumb, when a lot don't know why it was done, and definitely aren't offering any alternatives. At least provide examples of why you think it's dumb and not as good the way it is, as opposed to other methods that could be utilized, maybe we can find common ground everyone is happy with.
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DX-Chain
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DevastatioN wrote:
"lol what kind of retard would do that to Map1?"


...The same exact guys who have always said "wowz0rz! map01 is kewl and the best evar!!! don't change it!!111"

Aside from the irony, I think it's nice to see some progressive thinking at last Laughing
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Shakal
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DevastatioN wrote:
The situation occurs, that a player who is camping outside, should not come inside because he will give away any advantage he may be able to obtain,.

The person inside should not go outside, because he may take damage, and even if he DOES get the frag, he no longer has respawn control, so he's giving up health, and respawn control, to MAYBE get a frag (not even guaranteed, he may get fragged as well).

This becomes a stalemate where neither play SHOULD move, the game can only continue if one player decides to play incorrectly. Now, in a serious competition between two good players, who are playing for money or heavy competition, neither player will move for hours.


How many people do you actually believe will go that extreme? Honestly I can only picture one or two individuals in the entire league waiting for that long.
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Cybershark
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DevastatioN wrote:
The dynamics in Map1 have barely changed, in all my games in the new version it really hasn't changed much at all. I think I've only ever gotten into a switch position once a game? maybe twice, and they were the same result as if there was no switch.

I guess the dynamics won't have changed so much for every player, and maybe the switches act as a kind of nuclear deterrent - the threat of them alone being enough to prevent camping/dead game time.

Whatever, it is you guys' tourney after all, nobody is forced to sign up to it. Just seems weird after all those years of hearing how MAP01 is the perfect tactical map to see it altered in any way.
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DevastatioN
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Joined: 31 Jul 2002
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It still is the best strategical map ever, and the perfect tactical map, and the thing is, those el;ements haven't changed.

We've only removed a stalemate potential.

Shakal: I think, at the point "Wow, if I move, I'm gonna give up $250" or "I'm gonna give up $1000" or "I'm gonna give up <money>", will come to the conclusion "Hey, guess I shouldn't move!". But maybe not.

Chanidude: I think there's always been progressive thinking, but nothing concrete has ever come up. I think if this exact same explanation, and exact same fix came up 2,3,4,5 years ago, it woulda got the same response as now.
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