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ZDS #106 - Heretic Freaking CTF! OMG!
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Cybershark
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:08 pm    Post subject: ZDS #106 - Heretic Freaking CTF! OMG! Reply with quote



Did run this once before on ZDS but that was almost 2 years ago, so it's surely due for another airing? There's been lots of fixes since then, lots of new maps and most astoundingly of all it's even been requested once or twice in that time! Surprised

We got a pretty full server going back then which indicated that more people have that IWAD than you might ordinarily think. If you're not one of the lucky ones then you still have a couple of days to go purchase it and learn the ropes!

    Game Mode: CTF
    IWAD: HERETIC
    WADs: zhctfres8
    zhpctf_h
    zvox2

    Maps: 20 (E2M1-E2M9, E3M0-E3M9, E4M1) But don't sweat it if you can't run E3M0 guys
    DMFLAGS: 279620 / 134217737
    Players: 10 (autobalancing + 4 spec slots)
    Teams: 2
    Timelimit: 9 mins
    Flags: 5
    Skill: 4 - Nightmare
    No teamdamage or overtime.

    Date: Saturday 12th September 2009
    Time: 7:30pm UK Time / 9:00 pm EST
    Locations: L@P/XXX/Kruk / Unfy/NODE-3/3-BET


Last edited by Cybershark on Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Doomination
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

je n'ai pas heretic....
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See people!? There's another great reason to come play on Saturday! Very Happy
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Kruczyslaw
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Joined: 20 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#106 heh..... In first shell server crashes (we dont have idea why?! May be broken hd) in second servers wont ever be up (bsd and strange libexec error [wait for Lyfe`s help])....
Happy and flaggable 106 then... without me proably..Sad
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TheCupboard
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy Cool Very Happy

We are going to have tomes and tomes of fun.
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The Ultimate DooMer
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What came first, the chicken or the flag? (or more to the point, what will happen if that came to pass Razz)
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EarthQuake
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swear to god there better be chicken passages.
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so many.

Ok, after a shaky spell of only having the WADs available on Rapidshare, thanks to Kilgore they're now hosted somewhere that they can actually be linked to by a server - first post edited accordingly.

Server hosts please use the following url:
http://hs.keystone.gr/lap/
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Doomination
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cybershark wrote:
See people!? There's another great reason to come play on Saturday! Very Happy


haha you make it seem like it's some rare event for me to not show up on a zds day
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unfy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm hosting this on an alternate server of mine that i hope to put more doom servers on .... this will be a test of it i suppose.

name is unfy alt: zds#106... etc...

admins: rcon password is the same as my regular zds servers
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any US server is better than none!
Thanks man Very Happy
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think i had a map for that pack for some reason i dont think i ever completed it though
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's good to know...


Both sessions last night looked to go pretty well. We played a few games as 2on2 in the States but the server was real busy at other points too. Had some great games along the way! Shame I didn't quite get another map for it done in time. But nothing stopping anyone still contributing here, making a new pack or whatever!

And for anyone who missed the sesh: some of the servers should be up for the rest of the week - make the most of the chance to play!
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TheCupboard
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were some amazing games. I've been waiting for a long time to play a proper game of Heretic CTF.

People have to realize that the wand is about the second best weapon you have to shoot down a flag carrier (dragon claw being the best). The crossbow bolts, hellstaff spray, popcorn, and phoenix missiles all move too slowly if the enemy flagrunner has a head start on you. You can plink away at him and he'll usually go down if you have good aim and if he is all ready a bit wounded. The wand is also one of the best weapons if you slap a Tome on it.

Play Heretic CTF and show the elvenwand some respect. Smile I might make another map if I find the time to do so.


Last edited by TheCupboard on Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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unfy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheCupboard wrote:

People have to realize that the wand is about the second best weapon you have to shoot down a flag carrier (drawon claw being the best).


I noticed that on the third map or so (the first two, i seemed overly unlucky at spawning in the caves). But I recall having similar arguments against the general lack of hitscan weapons back in the modem days and regular DM Smile.

As such, I think heretic CTF is perhaps... a bit abusive in one respect -- a 100 armored or 200 armored flag carrier has to be stopped by either physically blocking a choke point or getting somewhat lucky with one of the projectile weapons :/
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah that's the big problem with Heretic. People think it'd be cool to play CTF/DM on it but it can be very frustrating with the given weapons (and also the available ammo). To any semi-serious Doom CTF player who's ever taken down the opposing flagrunner with their pistol then the strength of the elven wand should really come as no surprise. To make succesful maps for Heretic CTF then you kinda have to rip up the existing rulebook and think very differently about things - that or consider how a Doom CTF map would work if you only had projectile weapons to play with.

Interestingly, and I freely admit this, many of the early maps in this pack (from myself and Adereth) were crafted at a time when we were nowhere near grasping this. And yet on the US session I found Adi's big, wide open map (E2M3 - 'Phoenix Don't Jump') to work excellently. It's just a case there of leading your shots - aiming ahead.
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TheCupboard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretic's arsenal is a bit weird. It takes a while to kill the enemies in the game because the weapons are all slightly underpowered (probably to make the tome balanced). You can kill a zombieman in Doom with a few pistol shots but it will take eight wand zaps to take down a gargoyle. The mechanics between the two games are just different.

The thing about the crossbow is that usually you just have to avoid the central bolt that is launched to stay alive. I remember just dodging the middle projectile and instead taking one of the smaller missiles as a trade-off. Those little missiles do no considerable damage at all. I can eat them all day long especially if I have a quartz flask hanging from my belt. Razz

Another point - I would shudder if someone happens upon an enchanted shield and a shadowsphere. Put those two together and it's like having half a deck of Get out of Jail Free Cards when you are being pursued by the other team.
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The Ultimate DooMer
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cybershark wrote:
Yeah that's the big problem with Heretic. People think it'd be cool to play CTF/DM on it but it can be very frustrating with the given weapons (and also the available ammo).


Yeah, cos players aren't spoiled by having the best weapon every time they spawn, no 1-shotting people on full health from 768 units away here...different thought-based solutions required Razz

Quote:
To make succesful maps for Heretic CTF then you kinda have to rip up the existing rulebook and think very differently about things - that or consider how a Doom CTF map would work if you only had projectile weapons to play with.


Or just a chaingun with rockets and plasma would be the equivalent. And a few extra goodies to fight over like the tome.

TheCupboard wrote:
Heretic's arsenal is a bit weird. It takes a while to kill the enemies in the game because the weapons are all slightly underpowered (probably to make the tome balanced). You can kill a zombieman in Doom with a few pistol shots but it will take eight wand zaps to take down a gargoyle. The mechanics between the two games are just different.


Zombieman isn't a good comparison as he has 20 health, gargoyle 40, ranged gargoyle 80. But I think Heretic has much more depth than Doom in terms of tactics and resource usage. (compare pistol start Heretic to pistol start Doom, the former wins by a mile. And in DM you have a lot more items, which you also control the use of)
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TheCupboard
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More wand off-topic stuff: The wand is at times mismatched against Heretic's bestiary. In the IWAD levels, they dumped crystals all over the place and expect me to use the wand all the time - even on maps filled with graduated enemies like the saberclaw. I get all of these wand crystals and I can carry two hundred of those buggers. I wish Raven could have given me a double barrel wand or a geode gatling gun. That would make the number two weapon actually fun to use if you don't happen to be playing from pistol start. There was a reason why id had the chaingun use the same ammuntion as the pistol. Haha, but I guess we don't need Heretic to completely copy Doom in every sense for it to be loads of fun.
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahaha, double-barrel wand! Somehow I don't think Tealeaf will like the sound of that much though Wink

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:
Cybershark wrote:
Yeah that's the big problem with Heretic. People think it'd be cool to play CTF/DM on it but it can be very frustrating with the given weapons (and also the available ammo).


Yeah, cos players aren't spoiled by having the best weapon every time they spawn, no 1-shotting people on full health from 768 units away here...different thought-based solutions required Razz

You're too used to SP. How much time do you have to come up with 'thought-based solutions' in CTF? Laughing
And as Cupboard noted then yes, you actually are given one of the best weapons on spawn Razz

Face it, Heretic's weapon ranking makes little sense for competetive play! As someone noted in the session then the Firemace should probably be the default weapon for it, not the hardest to come by!
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