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New Tourament Style - Suggestion
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RTB
Dominating!


Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: New Tourament Style - Suggestion Reply with quote

So basicly I had a think a while back about this and personally I feel this would be quite enjoyable to do.

The idea I came up with was a ping/lag tournament.

I know most of you probably will automatically think, what a piece of crap of an idea, who the hell wants to have connection problems on a tournament game. This style of gameplay will show how well you can play under extreme ping/lag problems.

The lag/ping problems will never be unbalanced between both people as you would connection to a server I would make for the tournament unless you are from america or anywhere what gets around 200 ping to anywhere in europe then you may have more problems connecting to my server than people from europe.

Also as this type of gameplay would be really new to most players it will show what player learns faster than others of how to deal with this type of problem.

Anyway let me hear of what you think about this, thanks.
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Intoxicate
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Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahaha just because you would win Wink
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RTB
Dominating!


Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intoxicate wrote:
hahaha just because you would win Wink
nah mate i wouldnt be able to play, forgot to include that cheers Wink.
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Repins
On a Rampage!


Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Location: Northern Ireland

PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stupid idea..

I love it Very HappyVery Happy
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WeaponX
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Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Location: Great Britain

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shit idea imo
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spacepirate
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Location: que pasa

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So why would I play crappy servers again???
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RTB
Dominating!


Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys have no sence of challenge at all do you? A few people have played on a server I've made and it was interesting how they controlled their player with lag. Just thought it would be another interesting thing to do on this game.

Worth a try I guess :/.
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spacepirate
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Location: que pasa

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's make a tournament with Always run OFF!
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RTB, it's nice that you've come up with some ideas to boost activity within the community, but this isn't exactly thrilling. Think about it: why would anyone want to degrade the quality of gameplay? It's not a challenge at that point, it's whoever has the luck for a shot to hit. Nevermind the awful lag one experiences while trying to move. It's a nice way to practice but it's not exactly tournament material, I'm afraid. Your heart is in the right place, your head, yeah well...
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RTB
Dominating!


Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just thought really it would be a interesting change to the normal 50 ping to every server possible.

It ain't really much luck involved, yeah you are more limited than normal ping as you are much more limited to what strategys you can do compared to playing with normal ping but instead with lag and ping problems you need to try and focus on different strategys.

Also you cant limit yourself to the ssg while playing in that state compared to other weapons like the rocket launcher, plasma gun and BFG.

Anyway it would be interesting to see who gets knocked out by who compared to the normal tournaments. May find certain other players can control ping issues much better than what their status is with current tournaments.

I guess not that many people are interested nowadays as its rare for anyone to even have dial up or any other poor connection.
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RTB wrote:
It ain't really much luck involved, yeah you are more limited than normal ping as you are much more limited to what strategys you can do compared to playing with normal ping but instead with lag and ping problems you need to try and focus on different strategys.


I'm afraid a good portion of it depends on luck--more so than a game of average ping would. There are some strategy changes as the smart player wouldn't depend on ssg alone in open arena dueling, but let us not forget that both players are bound to the lag. So in reality, you really would be able to play the same way--both players would experience an enormous amount of lag though, and that's the issue.

Getting people to commit to tournaments now-a-days is a daunting task, throwing in new rules such as these isn't going to entice people to enroll, it would do the exact opposite.

Although I'm not a fan of your idea, I do see what you're trying to accomplish as well, but the style you'd wish for people to play in is flawed. You want people to adapt their strategies to lag, but as I mentioned above, both players would feel the same connection problems, thus there'd be no difference. If you really want to see people adapt, play 2 games. Both games would feature a player with a smooth connection vs one with a bad connection then alternate accordingly to see how the results play out. Average the score and voila, there you have it.

The only thing about that though, is that this simulates the old school way of doing it in .exe in a sense. One player feels the indigo lag while the other player is virtually lag free (I don't even remember if indigo has the lag, I remember one does and one doesn't). So more or less, this would be an old-school approach. To be honest, I think this format is better off where it is--in the past.

And even further to the point, you'd have a difficult time finding an adequate amount of servers to suffice all players and their areas equally.

Like I said, it's nice that you're giving it thought, but this simply doesn't cut it.
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mikehail
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what fluff is going for is he would like to play in tournies and official games in a fair environment rather than always be disadvantaged and always have an extra difficulty to overcome. They did something like this sometimes in quakeworld called minping where a ping limit was set to make everybody even or pretty close. Generally this artificial ping limit felt worse than actual ping so players didnt use it much.

Really though, it sucks but you will find nobody cares too much. The vast majority of players I have taken with me to unfy to play on a more fair ground have complained endlessly and refused to ever play there again. This is regardless of the fact that I might get 90ms and they get 110 or less (some actually outping me there and still complain) Of course packetloss exists and the individual player would usually be the best judge of that, but everybody has dsl or cable or whatever now and nobody really cares too much about the few (me fluff and xen are the only ones I know of) who don't really get to play on as much of a level field. Play it for what it is I guess.
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RTB
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Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supernova:
Yeah I think mostly I just wanted to see how the really good players would do against others with such ping. I know me and nokturne have played a few lag games as we are both on mobile broadband sometimes and they where really fun interesting games. I sometimes beat him and he sometimes beat me. On normal ping I find he could probably easierly beat me on the maps I played him on.

Still in my eyes I personally would get kicks seeing better people get trashed by people they wouldn't think they would lose to because they have to play on such low ping to be good Laughing.

I do see what you mean about the tournaments even currently. Personally though I kind of ment this for like a one time maybe two times only sort of tournament not a on-going one.

Oh also I think thats how the old way of internet gaming use to work. Someone would automatically make a server without knowing and the other person would play that person on that server. I use to get that on age of empires aswell Wink.

Thanks alot for your effort into making me realise more of how others would think of it Smile.

Miek:

Yeah I'm in that position mostly but I cant join the tournament n as I said to supernova I just really want to see how others can deal with the same internet connection I deal with every time I join a server Razz.

Swear they do alot of that in alot of games actually. The whole bad connection tournaments situation. Problem is I guess most of them games are very popular compared to zdaemon.

Overall your whole post is what I feel about my lag issues really n maybe abit extra on top Wink.
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Koreyko
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Joined: 14 Sep 2008

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like and support the idea.

Anyway ... would be more fun to play with 300 ms to 500 ms Surprised . Heavy weapons with high latency always solve problems.

I always play with latencies that would come to a turnoff to anyone (in Europe and Oceania servers).
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RTB
Dominating!


Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

o/. Yeah same I try to go to usa/oceania and hit 250-450 ping, it's great.

But anyway I doubt this is probably ever gunna hit very well unless we got a bunch of chile/peruvian players it would possibly work but that wasn't really even the point. Was more for other people who are lucky to get 50 ping to everywhere in their continent to try something new....

I'll make sure I tell you if it ever does happen Koreyko Wink.
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Mortalogy_DoP
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i support the idea.
just in my mind , i would like to see a server where everybody have the same ping. the server will put you at 150ping all the time event if you are near as it. i dunno how to explain but:
i played Enemy territory and their is some server where everybody have exactly same ping. so server regulate ping to everybody for having something egual.

I dont know if thats possible on zdaemon to have something like that.

Laters guys
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RTB
Dominating!


Joined: 05 Jul 2009

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah! Mortal nearly managed to hit it Wink. Only thing is it maybe different for some in europe, ain't really tried it with people from like finland or russia.

Thanks thought mortal, I'm glad someone who normally gets good ping actually likes the idea Smile.
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Mortalogy_DoP
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, the idea is not bad, like i said, i saw server on another game regulating ping for everybody, so like example you take horizonXL where everybody can get 30-70 (UK, CZ, FR or Finland) and you regulate ping to 100. if thats possible to do , i'm in for trying that

laters
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Ladna
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get a little irritated when I hear terms like "ping" being thrown around without people being clear about what they're talking about. I'll confess I don't fully understand the way ZDaemon's prediction works (because it's closed source, not because I'm dumb) so I'm making some assumptions. But I'm gonna throw some stuff out there; hopefully a dev can correct me if needed.

Latency is everywhere!

While the server is always processing events as fast as it receives them, clients are lagged. We all understand the idea of "lag" as "time required for data to transfer between client and server", but the client actually lags things itself (it deliberately buffers frames and interpolates player position updates - I'll get to this later). The result of this is that you're always seeing outdated versions of player positions, and they're always seeing outdated versions of your position. In fact, the only thing that's up to date is your view of your own position.

Latency is compensated for.

Even though you're seeing a lagged version of reality, the server honors requests from the past (within reason). So say your client is rendering frame 3 at 105ms (milliseconds). The server is processing commands originating at 175ms, so you're behind a couple of tics. You pull the trigger, BOOM! That command is sent to the server with the 105ms timestamp. When the command arrives, the server checks player positions at 105ms. If there's anything at the positions where your pellets hit, damage is registered.

Players aren't always where you see them.

If the client snapped players to exactly where the server said they were, they would jump around like Shakal. So instead, the client starts moving players towards that position. It looks smoother, but it's by definition inaccurate. The more updates the server receives from clients, and the more updates the client receives from the server, the better... but lossy connections or connections suffering from serious latency are especially susceptible to this problem. It's why "shooting ahead of a player" works when you're in those situations.

Packet loss destroys everything.

It's the devil. Your commands don't go through, you shoot at stuff that's not there, you think you run over flags and you don't, you jump all around, other players see you jump all around. It's balls. It's almost as bad as PrintScreen hacking (fuckin cheaters).

All of this is to say that "lag" really isn't that bad. Probably the worst thing about lag is that it takes some getting used to; it can completely change the feel of the game. I'm going out on a limb here because I don't know for sure, but I think Skulltag has sort of a "minping" thing, and that's why - even though it's more fair - it feels like crap.

Packet loss, on the other hand, is awful. Every time Mantis-X and I talk about this, he's quick to say that he can play on Dallas or Unfy or even Horizon and it feels better than TotalTrash does to him. Odds are there's a hop somewhere along the way that's dropping his packets - and judging by the fact that other servers are fine for him, it's probably close to TT. Or...... we wrote a script that quickly toggles an iptables rule to screw him over. 50/50 Wink .

Related to the original post, I really can't think of any fair way to even out packet loss. There's not much ZDaemon can do about it either. I guess maybe it could just have the client send duplicates of commands, and have the server just ignore dupes (and vice versa), but that seems like a terrible waste of bandwidth - which isn't really that bad for clients, but doubling, tripling or quadrupling the bandwidth for server admins just feels onerous.
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DX-Chain
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WeaponX wrote:
shit idea imo


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