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Introducing a new tournament system...
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DX-Chain
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what was so wrong with how the tournaments were run before the site got broken or whatever happened. Having a new set of admins hardly matters when the first order of business is "Guess what guys, we'll split you into OS and NS, how does that sound?"

Quote:
Equality and such. But seeing as OS is more competitive(...)

One can't help but notice a bit of contradiction here. How do you promote equality and immediately claim one style of play is superior to the other? Some great players get smoked with jump, freelook, and pick up sounds enabled. Likewise, other great players get smoked with the movement limitations and silent sounds of the classic emulation. This vicious circle is a basic fact of this game--don't believe me? Ask a "top" player in each style to try something outside their comfort zone and I guarantee the shit and piss will start to accumulate in their underwear.

NS and OS aren't clearly defined either--as you're well aware, the right DMFLAGS and other server settings can make all the difference to some players and affect the popularity/sign-up count of a given tournament. For instance, "NS settings" per ZDDL regulations are hardly new school, but what you see on L@P and HorizoN servers certainly fits the description more appropriately.

The monthly tourneys were just fine before imo. Each month, players had to adjust their game to whatever challenge the tourney admins put forward. Not only that, but everyone would be on equal footing, given that the map and settings were new to most players (even considering the age of the maps used). It seems like the new format actually encourages people to avoid these new challenges though. Rolling Eyes
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Tuomio
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Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had OS and NS tournaments before (OS tourney = OS map, NS tourney = NS-stylish map EH DUH), but we also had Intermediate and Novice tourneys aswell. Whatever happened to those? I guess when nothing was happening here, everybody lost interest.

Maps were chosen perfectly, as in NS tourney map, you needed to use the freelook if you had even slightest hope to win.
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Sniper
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Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Location: United Kingdom Clan: [BK]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Draza_Jr. wrote:
OK finally back from my holiday..

Well we enjoyed our vacation Rag and I suggest we should set some tourney soon..I´ll contact ya through PM here.


This was said last September, and then european tournaments were pretty much brushed under the rug until now as far as im concernced. (Apart from our friends in ECL / EDL etc...)

I agree that something needs to change, but if completely honest; i would say that a 'public vote' will always need the OK from an official leader like Raider. Whom although isn't always easy to contact, seems very good at decision making. Choosing new tournament admins shouldn't be a matter of a few names getting put forward in a thread and then others saying yes or no, this allows for a lot of favortism and/or bias does it not? Someone neutral and already of admin status (Raider, Kilgore, HumanBones) should always give the end decision because that's what theyre here for. As far as im concerned until an official member of ZDaemon staff has clearly stated who the admins are then there shouldnt be any.

As for the whole mixing NS with OS. Wouldn't that be like Mixing Tennis with Table Tennis? Plenty of similarities, but you couldnt seed players from each sport into one list of seedings could you?
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spacepirate
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Location: que pasa

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, this is kind of discussion about nothing. So what is the problem again ? Did dewwww said offical too much ? Do they have acces to somewhere that only admins had ?

I do not see the problem at all, only that people seemed to be pissed off by the word 'offical'. What is wrong with a public vote ? If they want to run tournaments let them, like all the other 'unoffical' tournaments had been run.

Maybe dewww words about 'a revolution' and 'this will be the new system' made some admins upset. I for that matter find it too a bit arrogant. But lets not make a whole ZDrama about it. Razz

If this new system is not approved by Raider and such then it will also never happen. So why do you worry so much, like Boner ?
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Thadeuss
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Location: www.areashiftybun.com

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well seems like this system should be used unofficially until the tourney section is sorted. I have to ask this though

HumanBones wrote:
I realize that this has been the first post in here since July, but I'm going to make it a rather short one. I'm excited to say that things are going to be picking up again around here thanks to our new Euro admins. We finally have a working bracket system.

However, I'm in need of 2 dedicated people who can help run things with me over here. The US tournaments won't be starting until February, dedicated helpers or not, as I'm curious to see how things go over seas.

If you're interested, please post here or PM me on the forums. I'm also located in #idl on irc.oftc.net.



Couldn't believe when I read that. Who are these new admins you speak of? Seems you gave them the go ahead only a few days ago, what's changed?

Can you not understand with posts like that why people assumed that Dew, Nero and Cybershark were already given the official seal of approval?
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Cybershark
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DX-Chain wrote:
One can't help but notice a bit of contradiction here. How do you promote equality and immediately claim one style of play is superior to the other?

Chill Chain. That was how I read it initially too but I'm pretty sure what Dewww was trying to say is that there is much more interest in the more well-known (OS) maps, hence a larger base for competition.

DX-Chain wrote:
NS and OS aren't clearly defined either--as you're well aware, the right DMFLAGS and other server settings can make all the difference to some players and affect the popularity/sign-up count of a given tournament. For instance, "NS settings" per ZDDL regulations are hardly new school, but what you see on L@P and HorizoN servers certainly fits the description more appropriately.

It's true. I'm sure some hardcore 'OS' players would bitch about Altdeath or if we decided to enable monsters in a map.

Tuomio wrote:
We had OS and NS tournaments before (OS tourney = OS map, NS tourney = NS-stylish map EH DUH), but we also had Intermediate and Novice tourneys aswell. Whatever happened to those? I guess when nothing was happening here, everybody lost interest.

Between the inactivity and the rise of wholly independent leagues then yeah, that about covers it. Ultimately we'd like to get CTF, TDM, hell, maybe even Co-op tournies going but it's a case of building up interest in this area of ZD again first - and y'know, letting us find our feet.
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spacepirate wrote:
Maybe dewww words about 'a revolution' and 'this will be the new system' made some admins upset.

yeah, poor choice of words. but.. hell, i'm no united nations emissary. i wrote a whole essay there and i was bound to make a blunder sooner or later. i assure i meant well and we certainly don't intend to hog anything.

i'd love to discuss those os/ns issues, int/novice tourneys and everything else, but it seems pretty secondary right now next to the 'official' problem. so... yeah, we're taking notes, but we're seriously uncertain how to continue.
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Thadeuss
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the way to progress Deww is going ahead with these tourneys, unofficial but still hosted on the zd forums. Then see what Raider decides to do.
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ufon
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Joined: 25 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

let me re-open this topic and let us take a look at the reward system once again as laid out in the first post

1 ... P32, P16, P8, P4
2 ... qualification round winner
5 ... L32, Q16, S8, R4
10 ... Q32, S16, R8, W4
20 ... S32, R16, W8
50 ... R32, W16
100 ... W32

so if im reading this right, the winner of the 16player grandslam would take 50+10+5+1 * 2= 132 points , while the runner-up gets 20+10+5+1*2=72 points and the semi-finalist 10+5+1*2=32 points ?

if my calculations are correct, even after reaching semis 4 times, you are still 4 points short of the tourney winner - that's not right

let me suggest a different system here

QR32/QR16/QR8 - 10 points
32R1/16R1/QF8 - 20 points
32R2/16QF/SF8 - 50 points
32QF /16SF/F8 -100points
32SF/16F/W8 - 150 points
32F/16W -200 points
32W -300 points

(QR32 - qualification round in a 32 player tourney,16R1 - round 1 of the 16 player tourney etc...)
only the worst seeded players should be forced into the QR


for example you get into the semis of the OS 16 player tourney and lose your next match, you'll get 100 points, you win the tourney, you get 200 points etc.

i think a system like this would be easier to work with for the admins and also more intelligible to everyone else
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for opening the discussion again, ufon.

i see what you mean by the big award difference, but first of all - only grandslam awards are multiplied by 2. it's there to promote 'the big events', so we'd multiply even with different (e.g. your) numbers :) remember, there's just 4 grandslams per year.

second - you are right with the finalist numbers being too high. i kept the logarithmic progression, but it does look steep. nero was in favour of numbers more similar to yours (just... not starting in tens). it'd probably be good to reduce it by a bit.

third - addition of points. i know it creates ugly, prime-like numbers. on the other hand it deals with DQ problems. awarding points for matches not played is not right. imho the tennis semblance fails here (they have substitutes ready, for example. but mainly - we get much more DQs so it's a bigger deal for us). nero proposed not using addition, but players getting their advancement award only if they win the next round... otherwise they're stuck on where they were before the dq. it IS a possibility, although it doesn't cover DQ in finals :) still... i don't see such a problem in adding points. ugly numbers will be generated by simply adding between different months anyways. also, we WANT some reward for every playing participant. anyways - this was my idea, i pushed it through our circle. if it seems too weird by majority, not adding rewards is also possible. :) please, everyone interested: leave a comment.

now.. let me correct that big final step in another awards draft. keeping the additions and rewards for all participants, starting at 1 point (i don't see the reason for starting at 10 points)... but the runner-up won't get a logarithmically growing reward, he'll add the semi bonus again. the winner gets the next step.

1 ... P32, P16, P8
2 ... qualification round winner
5 ... L32, Q16, S8 (+R8)
10 ... Q32, S16, W8 (+R16)
20 ... S32, W16 (+R32)
50 ... W32

what does that mean?
a winner of 16player tourney now gets 20+10+5+1=36 points. runner-up is on 10+10+5+1=26 points. semifinalists get 10+5+1=16 points. a runner-up of 32player tourney would get 20+20+10+5+1=56 points. a 32pl winner would get 50+20+10+5+1=86 points. the only 'uglifying factor' is the participation point, but that would happen to your total score whenever losing in round 1 anyways. better?


and last, but not least:
do you think it's necessary to split OS/NS ladders? so far it seems the deciding factor is whether people like THE MAP, not necessarily THE STYLE. although there's very little data to verify this claim at this point :)
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, the discussion had a blasting success. we're putting it in work, so here come final changes (protofinal?)

new point values as shown here:

no adding values in between rounds. you get what you see. in case of DQ progressions, player needs to win at least one match to start getting higher rewards. if he DQs his way to finals, then loses, it's still just 1 point.

intermediate tourneys for less skilled players, on the same map as the open/ns tourney, for half the point rewards. grandslams still for double points. should apply even for the participation reward (2p in grandslam, 0.5p in int)

will edit if something comes up...
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok as of now, the points are counted different:
- twice the value for grandslam
- normal values for intermediate tourneys (no multiplier for grandslams)
- 'pro' tourneys with intermediates running paralelly get points as if (pro_participants + int_participants) competed.

sorry for any retrospective changes in the table it caused..

another very important change: the current seeding system is rather stale. last month produced almost identical brackets for both tourneys. the same players tend to meet each and every month.
what i propose (and nero&shark seem okay with), is seeding the top 1/4 of signed up players, and the rest randomized. for instance in a 16player tourney, the 4 players with highest point count (i.e. roflogy, lolkin, lolster and hitlero) get placed so they won't meet until semifinals. everyone else is thrown into some randomizer (i will draw papers from a hat if need be). this should create different, at this point more interesting player combinations and also give a chance for new players to avoid mortal in round 1. :)

now, i would appreciate some feedback. we do believe this is a step forward, but i'm not entirely convinced by seeding (just?) 1/4. on the other hand, 1/3 is almost half of the table for 16player tourney and means high level of correlation again. discuss please?
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this sytem will work from now until 2010, I can't see there being a better way to make sure it's not as stale as mentioned. Besides, come the new year maybe ELO system will take place or something a little more player-friendly, plenty of time to think of new solutions.

As for now, we should stick to this and not go to radical with any ideas that may be discussed in following posts, we should consider any other options for the new year.
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Mortalogy_DoP
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, shouldn't be time to re-open this thread ?

Surprised
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed. after a full year of tourneys, i dare to say we were pretty successful. :) i am surprised both OS and NS tourneys got attention.

Eagle-Eye wrote:
Besides, come the new year maybe ELO system will take place or something a little more player-friendly, plenty of time to think of new solutions.

not yet. :-/

Eagle-Eye wrote:
I can't see there being a better way to make sure it's not as stale as mentioned.

the previous seeding change worked to a point. the staleness got removed and people got to play new opponents. on the other hand, both mortal and titan complained independently they're always meeting each other in semifinals. that is true, the top4 seeding isn't still working... for fun. therefore, two new changes will be made:

- splitting OS and NS into two ladders. this is self-explanatory. people proficient heavily in one style won't necessarily get seeded in the other. gyross will also have more stats to tinker with. :)
- seeding the top4 players without an order. they will still be in the 'far corners' of the brackets, but it won't be necessarily the rigid pairing of 1v4, 2v3.

this should provide a nice level of organized chaos. questions? comments? :)
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Mortalogy_DoP
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some comments to do:

i just complain about grandslam taking too much point, system are good.
I always meet titan because thats normal, he is one of the best with gyrossman, so i dont see how we can change that.
if you change to "- seeding the top4 players without an order. " the final won't be always the best players.

we meet always same people because always same players register no ?
so for me 2009 system are good

Splitting OS & NS , I'm not sure about that, do you think that will change something ? for me a good player can always play both
edit: i think plitting OS and NS will make players wont register to NS Exclamation
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saying the best players not meeting in the finals with this new system is being hypocritcal after whats been complained about. Anyways, the solutions that have arised for 2010 are not yet concrete and will need discussing some more before finally agreeing on something.
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Mortalogy_DoP
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

talk to dewww before posting something Smile

i though you wanted to put all random players. nothing more

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turSKA
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imo grandslams should give shitloads of points since the maps being played are what people have been -as dewww said- grinding for years and the players attending are usually the big boys! The skill needed to win a grandslam is thus higher.

Not that i give a shit about points anyway. Just my two cents. I still wouldn't join NS tourneys even if there were 100000 points for the winner Wink

Best players in final? I don't see that as an issue, because the best player will win it no matter who he is playing.
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Masta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not false turSKA about the Grandslam.

Now it is simply Grandslam tournament where the best players compete on maps that know in advance (where they used to play, more precisely) As if I would have talked about Mortalogy, he can play on all tournaments. This simply means that he can play anywhere. The strength of the great players too Smile heh
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