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Introducing a new tournament system...
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Introducing a new tournament system... Reply with quote

Okay then.
As you might know, we - cybershark, dewww, Nero - have been proposed by a public vote as the new Euro tourney admins. We are yet to be confirmed officially or given any rights here on the forums and the current tourney interface is broken, but we are already testing a new system that Stealth has kindly supplied. As fresh blood we have some ideas how to improve the current model. Nothing is set in stone so far and there's plenty of things to be added later, but basics need to be set up already.

- We want to run 2 tourneys per month. One will use OS settings/maps, one will be NS. The former will be kept more conservative to accomodate exe traditionalists, the latter will be more open to new stuff and ideas, maybe even experiments. The NS crowd is more accepting and it might keep things from falling into staleness... Even though there might be an occasional altdeath month for OS, too. If the map can take respawning items, it is OS after all. We promise we'll intervene if cybershark's ideas go too ZDS :)

- 4 of these tourneys will be what tennis calls Grandslam tournaments. We will choose a 'prestige' map that attracts players and this tourney will be 'more important'. They will be spread through the year, 2 in OS and 2 in NS. Equality and such. But seeing as OS is more competitive, there will be annual X-mas OS tournament with similar importance that will shift the ballance in OS's favour. Their point rewards will be doubled.

- Issues of CTF, FFA, Heretic, Coop, etc. might get considered later. Right now it would just crush us.

- Points! We want to introduce a reward system. Again, it's loosely based on tennis ATP ranking (nod to ufon for the idea). The progression in a tournament will yield some points to a player and he will hold them for one year. After that he will have to defend them. E.G. January 2009 points will be lost after January 2010 tourney. This system aims to stir activity in players and to disallow the Bazooka-effect over on the exp table :) Points won't be used just for ego massage, they will decide seeding order for next tourneys!

- Some additional artifical seeding might happen if a known strong player joins a single tourney, to avoid some horrible first round pairings.

- Point system itself: Of course the rewards from each tourney add to player's account and get deducted after 1 year. In the tourney itself, every progression is awarded. It's almost impossible to do fair enough 'steps' so the winner doesn't get over- or underpayed, etc. We stuck to simple logarithmic progression. If your opponent gets DQd, you get points only if you have at least one match won. No DQ-style way to finals to get 2nd place reward for zero wins.



- The tourney is considered 8pl if at least 6 players participate. It's 12 players for 16pl tourney and 24 players for 32pl tourney. At least half the bracket must be filled for round 1! If it's not so, the excessive players are either not allowed to play, or a qualification pre-round is set and the tourney is trimmed down. We don't want 32pl rewards in a 17pl tournament :)

- In case of too many players wanting to participate, the lowest seeds will have to play qualification round.

- Intermediate/beginner tourneys should accompany some (popular?) maps to encourage less proficient players. Point awards halved.

Okay, that's all for now. Ideas and debugging of the current model are welcomed! This topic might get edited heavilly as new things pop on. Good luck and happy fragging. And thanks, Boner. Looking forward to future colab.

Current tournaments website by Stealth (currently down)


Last edited by dewww on Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:06 am; edited 6 times in total
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ufon
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One question for starters, do you intend to mantain one big ladder for both 'modes' or two sepparate ladders for NS and OS ? I can see all sorts of problems with the former, so i'm just making sure before i get into it.
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Thadeuss
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds brilliant guys, hope it works out.
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capodecima
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am already very excited for the new tournament, dew on the castle Smile
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dewww
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ufon wrote:
One question for starters, do you intend to mantain one big ladder for both 'modes' or two sepparate ladders for NS and OS ? I can see all sorts of problems with the former, so i'm just making sure before i get into it.

well, i can probably guess some of the problems it might bring, but two separate ladders are not the answer, imho. if we stick to the tennis analogy, i bet there's a lot of players who'd love a separate clay/grass ranking :)
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Poignant
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I disagree with a mixed bracket. OS and NS if not accepted as one should be left aside everyone likes to play there mode, one braket will always hold arguments, two brackets will solve it.
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mikehail
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Introducing a new tournament system... Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
Okay then.
As you might know, we - cybershark, dewww, Nero - have been chosen by a public vote as new Euro tourney admins. We are yet to be given any rights here on the forums and the current tourney interface is broken, but we are already testing a new system that Stealth has kindly supplied. As fresh blood we have some ideas how to improve the current model.


ok not trying to rain on your parade, but when did zd become a democracy? Rolling Eyes
im also not certain forcing yourself upon the current tourney admins is either the right thing to do, or something that will prove successful.

dewww wrote:
- We want to run 2 tourneys per month. One will use OS settings/maps, one will be NS.

- In case of too many players wanting to participate two factors decide: the faster registrants and those who sign-up for BOTH monthly tourneys are preferred.


in america, not certain how different that is from europe, most sides dont seem to affiliate from what i have seen. this idea seems to force a gamemode that is deemed unpopular by each side on EACH side, ns and os. this also seems to indicate that player who solely plays os/ns could get left out of the only tourney he was interested in.
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ufon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To make long story short, i agree with vody(as commented on idoom), there ought to be an intermediate tourney if seeding is gonna take place(and it should!), nobody likes to be getting knocked out in the first round on monthly bases by the highest seeds who usually get the easiest of opponents - a tourney which is played on the same map, gets say a third of the points of the main tourney, and doesn't allow for players who are in the open already (that's what i call the os tourney) to take part, gotta take your pick.

Also i would dare to suggest cutting NS tourneys' point gain to a half or even a third of the OPEN(os) tourney, mixing NS and OS in such a way(as projected above) might not be the best of ideas - i can't imagine 2 such different aproaches to playing this game forging one universally accepted ladder of players.
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dewww
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Introducing a new tournament system... Reply with quote

mikehail wrote:
ok not trying to rain on your parade, but when did zd become a democracy? Rolling Eyes

it was more of a public revolution Cool
mikehail wrote:
im also not certain forcing yourself upon the current tourney admins is either the right thing to do, or something that will prove successful.

draza voiced his unwillingness to continue with administrating turneys, rag had complicated real life commitments. this one clarifies things a bit. i must admit we forced ourselves upon humanbones and he should have been included in everything from the start. i apologize for that.
mikehail wrote:
in america, not certain how different that is from europe, most sides dont seem to affiliate from what i have seen. this idea seems to force a gamemode that is deemed unpopular by each side on EACH side, ns and os. this also seems to indicate that player who solely plays os/ns could get left out of the only tourney he was interested in.

os/ns tourneys in europe had similar crowd. i understand the problems this 2in1 ladder might bring, but are you guys SURE it will be such a terrible mockery of all things fair and innocent? for starters, it is highly probable that ns tourneys will give out fewer points, because they will be less populated. let's give it a shot, we can split it if mutated babies start raining from the skies to punish our sins. and NO, we don't claim the ladder to be an accurate official search for the best zd player alive.
i'll believe in left out players when i see a first case Smile but not to be completely dismissing - yes, we should work in a qualification round rule to cover this scenario.

ufon wrote:
there ought to be an intermediate tourney if seeding is gonna take place(and it should!)

i can't agree more. we simply forgot about it, then ilekallio and vody reminded me of this independently. yes, high profile tourneys /namely os grandslams/ need this and we should work it in the system. i agree with those reduced point awards, too. luckily, seeding system needs a few months to.. initialize, so we can iron it out in the meantime Smile
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Introducing a new tournament system... Reply with quote

As the above linked thread shows then none of us actively sought out our new roles as tourney admins. As for us getting in the face of the existing staff then we can only plead guilty. Nothing had been going on for months around here and now it is, so I personally am not interested in accounting to anybody for getting pro-active.

If anybody else had any interest in reviving the tournament scene then they should have had the balls to do something about it before we were forced to Wink
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Thadeuss
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys DID NOT force yourselves on anyone, if anything we the players suggested you guys as POSSIBLE tourney admins. We spoke to the current admins who AGREED that they could no longer do the job due to other commitments.

I spoke to Kilgore, and he said it was fine. He didn't mention anything about human bones or anyone else. What he did say was run it past Raider which I will admit I don't know if anyone has as it's difficult to get in touch with him.

I understand Bones is a tourney admin, but really, the threads were on going for weeks if not months about problems with tournaments. Any admin had PLENTY of time to post comments in the forums they are supposed to be moderating. I don't mean any disrespect to Bones as he's a great player and has done great things in tourney administration, but c'mon guys, don't apologise for showing some initiative. I think the consensus was that the other mods were no longer active, no offense was meant, but it just looked that way.


Everyone seems happy with Nero, Dew and Cybershark as mods so until Raider says otherwise lets support the guys who are trying to bring back official ZD tourneys. I think they are doing a great job, have already organised and had played a tourney within days of becoming admins.

Poignant: Where are ya mate? Miss those d5m1 games and the banter, get yourself on IRC! I think you may have a point about separate brackets, but maybe we can see how this new system goes first and if there are problems I'm sure they can be ironed out along the way.


Mikehail: The previous mods were selected by a vote, so the precedent had already been set and like I said, pretty much everyone that could be asked, was asked about it. Maybe a similar way of doing things would get some support for Bones on the other side of the Atlantic, not a criticism, just a suggestion.
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Kilgore
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try to clarify my POV as neutrally as I can, because I'm not in the mood for more unpleasantries.
  • Since you're talking about the official ZD tourneys, this implies that the tourneys are organized by the ZD project; this in turn rules out popularity contests, etc. Since Raider is the project leader, he's the one with the authority to appoint admins: noone else. If one disagrees with that, then one is perfectly free to organize tourneys, but they will not be official.
  • Just for the sake of argument, suppose Raider goes along with the changes and these are the official tourney admins running the official tourneys: you consider it appropriate that we see major changes in the tourney (OS & NS combined) without any consultation with the project itself? that's rather rude, wouldn't you say?
  • I'd think twice about using terms like "arm twisting" or "revolution": haven't you noticed how badly we react to such approaches?
The above means just what is says: I'm not against the particular selection of admins: but it has to be decided by Raider. Until then, it's is just that: unofficial and only a suggestion. Hopefully Raider can reply relatively soon. Changes to the tourney format are a completely separate issue and should be agreed with the project admins first.
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Thadeuss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes of course Raider is in charge, as we've all been saying from the beginning,however, the previous admins were selected through voting, so I think people believed it would be fine to do the same again. I think many, including myself, thought Raider was aware of the whole situation or atleast the development team were if he was away.

This thread was merely there to gauge who would like to be an admin and who the community would support.

http://forums.zdaemon.org/viewtopic.php?t=12049&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Stealth said he'd PM Raider about it in the thread, so I assumed they had spoken about it as Stealth seems well versed in ZD development.

Did anyone PM Raider?

If So, has anyone heard anything from him?


No one is trying to undermine the staff or anything, but it seems there's been a misunderstanding. So am I right to say then that currently we have no tourney admins and Nero, Deww, and Cybershark should stop hosting "official" tournaments until Raider says so?

If that's the case mate, any idea when we can expect to hear from him?


I'm not trying to be rude, but I feel these guys are just trying to help bring more players to ZD and to make ZD more interesting with some great tourneys. I thought the development team would want people like that to host tournaments. They are well respected and know the game inside out. Cybershark is a mod elsewhere on the forums also. Ofocurse it is entirely down to those who run ZD to make these decisions, however, it feels like the tourney section is being left to die without the
intervention of these guys.

Out of interest, were Draza and Ragnarok ever given the go ahead by Raider to be mods?
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ufon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let's omit the word "official" from the tourneys' discription(i don't think it's even there) then and we can roll on, i think both official and unofficial tourneys can coexist here in this part of the forums - like they always have, especially since there are no official tourneys underway and no admins to run them.
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HumanBones
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contrary to what you may think, I chose Draza and Ragnarok, not the public. I actually recall receiving quite a bit of "hate" PM's about that; some people were upset that I didn't choose who they wanted. Well, who they wanted were not suitable to do the job. Things haven't changed.

When it comes to deciding these sorts of things, I have always and will always run it by Raider. That is the way things will always be done. I can't make people moderators or give them the access they need to make brackets; Raider does that stuff. So yes, Draza and Ragnarok were ok'd to do it.

If you want to ignore everything I've said about the website being broken and come in here and step all over everything, fine. Don't act like I've completely abandoned the whole tournament section; I've said countless times what the problem is.

By all means, run what you want to run. They will never be official.
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Stealth
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Raider gives the go ahead (I spoke to him once when I was in no fit state at 6 in the morning to discuss anything riveting with him) which I'm mostly certain he'll not hesitate for too long in doing, then all tourneys and events like such arranged by the three proposed admins, current and past, will be deemed official. The changes to the tourney system itself, are obviously proposed changes, we are not using the official brackets, or running 'official' tourneys if you like, as of yet, so we shouldn't worry too much as it still looks like there are a few problems or issues arising that need to be ironed out before we can call this system, or suggest it to become, official.

I may have a solution to the communication problem, but I'll suggest this and see what happens. Until then I'd say good work so far, you do seem to be keeping ZDaemon's best interests at heart by taking on this role and from what you've done so far, appear to be determined to put a lot of work into it.

Now in reply to Bones' message, that's fair enough. The current brackets are broken, that's why I slapped together a usable, and functional temporary one. We never slapped the ZDaemon seal of approval on these tourneys, so I wouldn't complain about that. Also it sounds like your suggesting that Raider will never deem these three guys admins, and that you think that they are not up to the job. That is what I read, and to be frank, I don't agree with you. And you know very well why.
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Thadeuss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HumanBones wrote:
Contrary to what you may think, I chose Draza and Ragnarok, not the public. I actually recall receiving quite a bit of "hate" PM's about that; some people were upset that I didn't choose who they wanted. Well, who they wanted were not suitable to do the job. Things haven't changed.

When it comes to deciding these sorts of things, I have always and will always run it by Raider. That is the way things will always be done. I can't make people moderators or give them the access they need to make brackets; Raider does that stuff. So yes, Draza and Ragnarok were ok'd to do it.

If you want to ignore everything I've said about the website being broken and come in here and step all over everything, fine. Don't act like I've completely abandoned the whole tournament section; I've said countless times what the problem is.

By all means, run what you want to run. They will never be official.



Looks like you are deciding that they will never be official rather than Raider. Didn't you just say you run everything by him?
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Stealth
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually realizing that's his point. Sorry Bones, my mistake.
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Thadeuss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I see it Cybie, Nero and Deww just want to help. Why not talk to each other about it?
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly I'll just say that I had forgotten that Bones was the boss of the Euro admins in addition to being the US admin until he reminded me. My bad Embarassed

Kilgore wrote:
[*]Since you're talking about the official ZD tourneys, this implies that the tourneys are organized by the ZD project; this in turn rules out popularity contests, etc. Since Raider is the project leader, he's the one with the authority to appoint admins: noone else. If one disagrees with that, then one is perfectly free to organize tourneys, but they will not be official.

It's not that I disagree with that, it's just that I don't have the patience to watch more calendar months flutter by while we get no further than more vague umm-ing and ah-ing.

Kilgore wrote:
[*]Just for the sake of argument, suppose Raider goes along with the changes and these are the official tourney admins running the official tourneys: you consider it appropriate that we see major changes in the tourney (OS & NS combined) without any consultation with the project itself? that's rather rude, wouldn't you say?

I personally have had very little to do with this side of things, trusting instead in the wisdom of Nero, Dewww and their consultants. But what would it matter if it did all ultimately end up a dismal failure? It's an experiment, not necessarily a blueprint for every future tourney.

As far as being rude goes. Well, perhaps if we'd had some indication that anyone around here cared about the state of the tournies then we'd have worried about putting people's noses out of joint. Like Thad said then these topics have been going on for a while and nobody was paying much attention before now.

HumanBones wrote:
If you want to ignore everything I've said about the website being broken and come in here and step all over everything, fine. Don't act like I've completely abandoned the whole tournament section; I've said countless times what the problem is.

Oh that's no insult to you Boner. We know the problems there (as did the people directly supposedly responsible for maintaining them) only it was Stealth who actually went away and did something about it.

ufon wrote:
Well, let's omit the word "official" from the tourneys' discription(i don't think it's even there) then and we can roll on

If this is the kind of ZDrama we're looking at solely due to the use of that one word then I am entirely happy to make such an omission. Now can we please leave the red tape at the door and just get some fucking games played?
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