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The Persistance of ZDCTF map01
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TheMionicDonut
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Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Location: Burgertopia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: The Persistance of ZDCTF map01 Reply with quote

Greetings ZDaemonites.

I appear today not to discuss a serious issue, nor to ridicule an issue of lesser importance, but to ask a question that has been confounding me for the past few weeks or so, and see what all of you have to say about it. The following topic may appear controversial to some (I spent a few minutes deciding whether it would go here or under clanwars), but i would prefer opinions about it, rather than it going down in flames.

After looking closer through Ghouls "New ZD clanwar standard thread" I decided, rather than spend my every ZD moment complaining about the usage of the same three maps, and began to think more about what made these maps so special to be the ONLY three maps ever used in clanwars and scrims. Out of the dozens upon dozens of other fully capable maps in all the mainstream CTF map packs including UCTF, 32in24-4, CrazyCtf, hell even zdctfmp 2 and 3 -which can be found on virtually EVERY server. Why is it that ALL clanwars and scrims consist of three maps from one pack. zdctfmp.wad maps 01, 04, and 08. Without exception, every clanwar I have witnessed in the past week has consisted of those three maps...and in that exact order, no less.

For Map08 I digress, it is indeed a well made map, and lives up to its moniker of "Something Epic". How it came to be the deciding factor (or tie breaker, call it what you will) in terms of clan wars, is quite obvious, it is a well-balanced map. I can fully see why it is a beloved jewel of the ZD clan community.

On a similar note, map04 shows that great things can come in small packages. What with it requiring a quickdraw defensive style of play needed for success on it, and an equally or even more so efficient Offense to rack up the points. It is a mind game at its finest. Multiple routes can throw a spin into the strategic aspect, making Map04 is a recipe for awesome, so it too avoids my hammer of bitchery (for the time being)

Which brings me to the subject of the matter. Map01. What makes it so special? Does it create virtual chess game style with multiple ways to get the job done when it comes to getting those those flags . No. Does it at all measure the skill of the people playing on the map. Hardly. Most scores on that map come from being in certain places at certain times. The map could be described as a barbaric slaughterhouse at best. While that does give it a nice ring, I again bring up map04, which in pretty much every case seen, has ended up with a higher frag count than map01. Why is it that people love this map so much over the 20 or so playable maps in that wad pack alone? (zdctfmp 1 2 and 3 combined)


In spite of my agreement with the widespread approval for the first two maps i talked about, I still die a little bit inside every time a clanwar or scrim consists of 01 04 08. And its not just because of 01, but that is the main one that gets my goat admittantly, because I know where it leads right after. Why is this map always picked, and picked first no less. I want to hear from all of those with a good (logical) opinion supporting or otherwise of the map. Maybe I am missing something important.

(Btw if this seems more fit for the clan section, by all means move it there)
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andymun
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's awesome. Could play it all day. Start to like it otherwise you're going to have issues.
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Welkin
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my prefer is map11..but the map is unfair so i don't play it for clan war now..
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Eagle-Eye
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: The Persistance of ZDCTF map01 Reply with quote

TheMionicDonut wrote:
Which brings me to the subject of the matter. Map01. What makes it so special? Does it create virtual chess game style with multiple ways to get the job done when it comes to getting those those flags . No. Does it at all measure the skill of the people playing on the map. Hardly. Most scores on that map come from being in certain places at certain times.


That's kinda the idea and that takes some degree of skill to accomplish every time around. And so I disagree, just because it's a flat like rectangle map doesn't make it non worthy! It takes a shit load of team work and support to win a worth while scrim on that map.
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Tuomio
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Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great maps, whats wrong with them? Razz

Map01 is a "caveman" stylish map, it is quite simple, but still requires certain skills from the team to be succesfull. Map04 is a little more complex, due to higher and lower grounds of the map. Map08 is even more complex than map04, it is usually a MUST to use rocketjumps there to get out of the flag room safely, and all the other tricks but I'm just too lazy to mention em all.

I guess these maps just balance each other pretty well, they're all different and also, classics.

YOu want logic? doesnt MAP01 say it all? Razz First map and all n shit.
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Ronald
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Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Netherlands Clan: [QnB]

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuomio wrote:
Great maps, whats wrong with them? Razz


Nothing, they indeed are. But no better than some other maps in all CTF mappacks.

I think the explaination is quite simple about this subject, which has been brought up many times before. People don't want to lose, so they play the maps they know. Playing maps they don't know will encrease their chances to lose, so they do rather not. I'm not saying this goes for everyone, but for most people this is the (subconscious) reason.

Personally, I like all CTF maps, as long as there is no overtime enabled. Razz Each map has its unique twists and twats that put me to the test on various aspects of my skills. Sad thing for me is, everytime this subject is being brought up, the maplist of the only played CTF-mappack seems to be cut even further. This is one of the reasons I can hardly be bothered to play CTF, neither in public CTF as in private CTF. If I do, I play one or two matches. After that, the boringness of playing the same maps are coming back to me.

On another note, there are two CTF packs I refuse to play. These are tlsxctf or something and zdectfmp. Not because of the maps, just because of that fecking Railgun. Mad
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Stealth
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Joined: 09 Nov 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
On another note, there are two CTF packs I refuse to play. These are tlsxctf or something and zdectfmp. Not because of the maps, just because of that fecking Railgun. Mad

If you want to succeed at that, simply stop using the keyboard and start using the mouse. Surely you can realize that.

I won't put down all my thoughts on zdctfmp map01. Yes, it could be another case of 'first map syndrome', as we have seen countless times before. However the map is simple, and thus requires a very different strategy, if not more than, other maps.
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Welkin
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about a project of best map of all ctf pack? the ultimate ctf pack Smile
this style of project will maybe push poeple to change and play some other map Smile
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spacepirate
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key for a ctf map being a succes is make it easy. If players think they can easily pull tricks or get better than other people they keep playing it to the bone. Only the truth is. A map has to be easy. So that everyone can think they can play like a 'pro'. So that the map is very intense. You can say, in a map it is easy to be good. Like MAP01 for example. Because you have so less possibilities in getting to the base etc. your skill is based on movement, skill and mind.

An example is MAP04. The map is so easy, yet the little thingies do the trick. Like jumping the 3D bridge. That kind of stuff.

The rookies can play good as well so they play. The amateurs are really intense playing, because they feel they are slight better than other people. Off course the real 'pro's' plays it because they can beat many people by their skills. So there is something for everyone !

That is the key to the map. If you make a very complicated map, rookies, noobies, amateurs and pro's (so called the crowd) fall off. Since they do just want to play. Only a couple of people really want to get in the map and get better (these people are pretty rare in a online community with so many members), because they face a new challenge. Most people do not want to face challenges in that kind of stuff.

So yeah. I have tried to just ignore what people play and just make crazyctf. But hey, 80% of the maps are just too complicated and too many details. It is like a candy with an amount of sugar. But if you keep adding the sugar it gets a bad taste and it doesn't have that yummy candy taste ! Same with maps. Razz

I think it is also a feeling with the maps. People now played so many zdctfmp they feel at home with those maps. And they do not want to play other maps, since it is unkown.
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soncdoommario
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Joined: 19 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, why is map01 of ANY WAD so special? Same goes for Doom II Map01, Dwango5 Map01, and countless others.
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spacepirate
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soncdoommario wrote:
You know, why is map01 of ANY WAD so special? Same goes for Doom II Map01, Dwango5 Map01, and countless others.


They are not special. Read my post. Wink
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K!r4
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welkin wrote:
what about a project of best map of all ctf pack? the ultimate ctf pack Smile

After few polls it would be nice !
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The classic argument.
Why does everyone always use the same maps hahahah!
Finally, the old "why always D5M1?" argument has been brought to CTF.
If you can remember what ZDaemon was like before CTF, this is the same old argument going by a different name. Razz
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Cybershark
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to burst your bubble Switch but this isn't news. People were predicting years ago, that ZDCTF would become the DW5 of CTF - overhyped and overplayed.

Back in Sept. 2004 scott007 wrote:
Oh yeah, I'm quitting Doom mapping, you people make me sick, with your dwango5 and zdctfmp.
Nah, I really map just for fun, though not actually ever getting to play the map makes mapping feel pointless.

(Slightly emo perhaps but you get the gist of it)

So what's actually wrong with this 'same old argument'? Shame all you can do is laugh smugly rather than offer any real insight eh?

Much kudos and love for making this topic Mio. Surely the most heartwarming thing since Rottking's "why MAP01 sucks" thread. You have brightened the Doomish corner of my day most immeasurably! Very Happy

I could go off on all kinds of both direct and tangential rants here but I can't be bothered at the moment. Simply Stealthy described it best as 'first map syndrome'. It's laziness, nothing more. People generally resent having to truly think about what and where they play and instead opt for the path of least resistance.

Welkin wrote:
what about a project of best map of all ctf pack? the ultimate ctf pack Smile
this style of project will maybe push poeple to change and play some other map Smile

Yeah it's a great idea Welkin, I've considered it myself. The problem is that not enough people play outside the box to have a clue what to vote for.


P.S. The fact that it took three authors to co-concoct that first ZDCTF map continues to astound me.

P.P.S. Ronald bear with me, I have a real treat for you on ZDS Wink
Ronald wrote:
Each map has its unique twists and twats that put me to the test on various aspects of my skills.

TWATS! ROFL! Best typo(?) ever!
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pErf3ct _DaRk_
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's still a way to fix the "same map problem"; Stop hosting them. People will then be forced to play something else.
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Serp_i_Molot
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like map01, if you are not good as the other team, you have no chance. Granted, you will not on the other maps, but at least on map04 you can hold them off a little... same goes for 08. I think that the thing that makes map01 overplayed is the fact that it is quick. If you are following the flag carrier and don't kill him before he scores, you can easily get a point for your team if you are quick enough. That is a sort of strategy, but I agree, there are better ctf maps in zdctf. I personally like the excavation.
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spacepirate
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ PeRfEcT_-_*&%$ DARK69

That is not fair towards the people. People have to choose what they want to play and host.
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ufon
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think all maps have a certain learning curve, at some point, it doesn't really matter how much more time you've spent on the map, more hours on that map don't really give you much advantage anymore.
There are maps out there for which most players have already passed that mark, they know the map inside out and the only thing which separates two teams in a scrim/clanwar is the teamwork and technique of individual players.(or strategy employed, however strategy based on the same common knowledge of that map) That's where it's decided who is better and that's what i believe is the subconscious reason for playing these maps.
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So map01 won out on the sole virtue of being the one that servers always crashed back to and thus got played the most?

pErf3ct _DaRk_ wrote:
There's still a way to fix the "same map problem"; Stop hosting them. People will then be forced to play something else.

Heh, well it's good to joke about but why not?

Take a look at anything out there, be it places of work that have a dress-down Friday or fast food joints like McDonalds who always have some non-standard something (like the McRib) that they run every now and again. It's all about keeping it varied.

Something else that made me think was on a recent national holiday in the UK. See we have this small broadcasting outfit called BBC Radio 1 and they did this awesome line-up change where the daytime DJs got the day off and the guys who usually play tunes in the early hours got to see the sunlight and run their daytime shows.

Did they do it to piss off the regular listeners? Nope, they do it to educate the masses to sounds that they may not otherwise be familiar with and there's a big sense of fun behind it.

I've always thought that would be highly awesome for ZD. Just one day of the year when server admins took down all the Brit10/DW5/ZDCTF (or where they were just blocked from appearing on the master). Then let the dice fall where they may.

It's just ironic that so many people here are so outspoken about and proud of the cool music they listen to but when it comes to gaming then it's like they all just listen to that one crappy local radio station which plays the same top ten shit allday everyday Crying or Very sad
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Tuomio
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOO BAD THAT SOME PEOPLE ENJOY SAME SHITTY MUSIC WHAT THAT SHITTTY RADIO STATION PLAYS
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