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Legend 1on1
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ZERO99
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Joined: 23 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:54 am    Post subject: Legend 1on1 Reply with quote



Last edited by ZERO99 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:31 am; edited 10 times in total
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Err... yeah... BMPs won't display in the forum. Convert 'em to PNG, GIF, JPEG or whatever.

Grabbed this from a server just before ZDS kicked off but not had a chance to look yet. My expectations are high though so it better not disappoint!
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dont worry im sure you wont be dissapointed, i had the awesome chance to get to know vampy alot better over the creation of the project and he was at every play test i threw out it was quite an honnor having a top knotch 1on1 player like vampy testing my map and telling me how fun the map is. it was a real boost in my confidence in this map if it wasnt for him i doubt it would be here today in Zd review and ill get right on the screenies to convert them to .jpeg
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Alfred
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Joined: 25 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At first this map feels really huge and expansive, but once you run around a bit more, and get a feel for it, it comes down to size. Think this is a pretty cool little map you've got here. Not entirely drab with the same old same old doom textures, and plenty of detail evens out with the gameplay.

Seems like a real winner. Hope to see it up on servers! Smile
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Stealth
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Joined: 09 Nov 2004

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you will Wink I like the look of this map, but I'd host it nevertheless, because it needs to be reviewed, and you can only do that by playing. We'll see some games tonight, no doubt Razz

FasthostsUK.org #10 | ZDReview - Legend 1on1
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Consigliori
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is looking like a very good map. I hope to see some people actually playing it. It's simple looking, simple to navigate your way around. The weapon placement is good and with the size of the map allows for either a fast or slow paced game. I'm surprised to see no mouselook, i think gameplay would benefit from it alot because autoaim is a little tricky with some shots on this map.

Either way, good stuff you're onto a winner here.

On a side note, of course Vampy likes it it's got a teleporter Razz
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GhoulSlayeR
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just took a look around it for abit and wanted to give some feedback.

Well, It seems very open in the main area, Some people may like it, some may not. I think there is more you could do with the middle area to make it play alot better.

Some areas were pretty cramped to me, such as the stair areas. It could be improved my widening them slightly imo.

Some of the stairs themselves were pretty steep, meaning you slide down them without much control and is usually annoying when that happens.

The whole outside detailed area seemed a little bit unnecessary. Could of stuck with a horizon or something to that effect, but I wouldnt think of it being a problem the way it is right now, just my perspective.

BFG grab was pretty interesting. I found a way to grab it without using the switch also. I dont know if that was intentional or not. I would keep it that way though. It worked pretty well.

Overall it is a pretty solid map, Some changes could make it even better.

Keep up the good work.
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ZERO99
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Joined: 23 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfred wrote:
At first this map feels really huge and expansive, but once you run around a bit more, and get a feel for it, it comes down to size. Think this is a pretty cool little map you've got here. Not entirely drab with the same old same old doom textures, and plenty of detail evens out with the gameplay.

Seems like a real winner. Hope to see it up on servers! Smile


Alfred you always seem to nail the exact aspect i go for in my maps and thanks for the great feedback as always.

StelthCP wrote:
Well you will I like the look of this map, but I'd host it nevertheless, because it needs to be reviewed, and you can only do that by playing. We'll see some games tonight, no doubt

FasthostsUK.org #10 | ZDReview - Legend 1on1


Thank you for hosting the wad Stealth its always greatly appreciated when a map that someone has made is hosted with out them even asking!

Consigliori wrote:
This is looking like a very good map. I hope to see some people actually playing it. It's simple looking, simple to navigate your way around. The weapon placement is good and with the size of the map allows for either a fast or slow paced game. I'm surprised to see no mouselook, i think gameplay would benefit from it alot because autoaim is a little tricky with some shots on this map.

Either way, good stuff you're onto a winner here.


Thank you for the compliment Consigliori! i bet this map will be played its going to be hosted on DUI NJ #13!

GhoulSlayeR wrote:
Well, It seems very open in the main area, Some people may like it, some may not. I think there is more you could do with the middle area to make it play alot better.


I disagree the main area is perfect they way it is, if i added anything else i think it would have ruined the map dont be lazy get some SR50 going there are tons of places to hide and duck in and out of in that area i would i know made it and play tested it many times.

GhoulSlayeR wrote:
Some areas were pretty cramped to me, such as the stair areas. It could be improved my widening them slightly imo.


None of the area's seemed cramped what so ever in the play tests. i bet i know the One Cramped area you are talking about its the last screenshot. in every play test no 2 people were really actually down there because of the 3 escape routes when you spawn. i knew it was a cramped area so i gave you plenty of ways to get out easly if someone arrived down there anyway to try to kill you.

GhoulSlayeR wrote:
The whole outside detailed area seemed a little bit unnecessary. Could of stuck with a horizon or something to that effect, but I wouldnt think of it being a problem the way it is right now, just my perspective.


i tryed a horizon and it seemed to plain to me i added the details outside to make it a bit more interesting in the off distance i think it does the job better then a horizon because it adds some more dark tones to the distace i had so much yellow and tan like colors in this map already i didnt want a big yellow/tan sky to look at when running by a window, i wanted some black and grey to add some more darker tones. but that doesnt really matter it doesnt add or take away anything from my main focus in mapping the gameplay and feel not the looks.

GhoulSlayeR wrote:
BFG grab was pretty interesting. I found a way to grab it without using the switch also. I dont know if that was intentional or not. I would keep it that way though. It worked pretty well.


Yes it was intentional and it seems quite obvious to me that it is. i used that way to get the BFG quite a bit in the play testings thats also why i made the walls to the side of you with the custom Metal texture able to open for you to get back inside and not trap you to moving pretty much in 1 direction to mix it up on your enemy not making getting the bfg a 1 way highway when you go out the window.

GhoulSlayeR wrote:
Overall it is a pretty solid map, Some changes could make it even better.

Keep up the good work.


Thanks for posting your opinion i think it takes alot for someone to post an honnest opinion on something like this, its good to see that not everyone loves this map it shows that Zdaemon isnt a one way street and there is diversity in peoples want in maps and diffrent playing techniques. But i just happen not to agree with your opinions and it doesnt seem like the rest of the people who have posted do either.
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GhoulSlayeR
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, thanks for taking some critism well unlike some people of these forums Razz

As a mapper and a player that was my honest feedback.
I suppose our mapping styles are different for sure.

Glad you map for Gameplay before looks also Cool

About the outside box area I forgot to add also, It seemed unnecessary to me because it added more lines, but it really isnt a problem as stated in my last post.

Also some advice if you didnt know: You can make lines "Hidden" so they dont appear on the automap. very simple to do and it makes the map more neater in automap.


the cramped places were not only the place in that last screenie actually, it was one of the stairs. Doesnt really leave you much dodging room.

I figured that out not to long ago and I wish I would have sooner Embarassed

But I look at gameplay more than anything in a map, everyone should know that by now Wink

Gameplay here is great, but I feel it could be better. I'm pretty sure in a month or two, you will release something even better. keep it up.


Last edited by GhoulSlayeR on Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alls well ends well we agree to disagree...I LOVE IT!
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scirmast
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Joined: 13 Nov 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting map. For starters there are not many places to hide so this promotes more action. I played two games and it felt good. In the very beginning the layout seemed a little too basic, but this subsided quickly as I realised the amount of options.. looks are deceiving!

Getting the BFG is neat with two routes, one revealed by the switch. Just like others I wondered if the window grab was intentional but nevertheless its better this way. Not sure but I think first time I went for BFG I even managed to get back through the window.. haven't been able to replicate that since.

There is a good amount of weapons, and they're placed well. If you spawn with rockies you can use them to defend or clear the way while you're getting ssg, I like that. But my gripe is that Plasma is used only as extra ammo for BFG. It could easily replace a Rocket launcher and then be used as a same way - defensively. This would give a little more variety to gameplay as it still differs from rockets although their role would be similar.

No items are present, at least was not in the server I played, and being DM1 map it might not need them. Still some carefully placed things could spice it up.

I am not sure how many spawns there are, but from the two games I played it feels like there could be one or two more. I am not yet convinced that this is the case though.

Graphics are above average awe wise, but when really I like in them is that they make the level look good while not sacrificing tha gameplay. Adereth once asked if form does matter in a level. When done this way it surely does!

I look forward to more games in this map and am glad it is hosted in Europe. Very promising map!
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the Plasma, ok at first the rocket near the exit was the plasma. i moved it to inside the exit to make it harder to get because in all the play tests you could get the bfg and easly get more ammo with the plasma where it was making the bfg way to powerful. moving it and replaceing it with a rocket balanced that out and it did the job well.

and thank you for the compliments and comments on the map! i always love hearing good feed back but i love it more when i get negitive feedback on small things which i can lay my case why it was changed and not done that way to show how much thought i put in to this hence the about 5 month constuction period and many weeks people saw "ZERO's 1on1 test" in the server list
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Consigliori
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhoulSlayeR wrote:

Well, It seems very open in the main area...
I think there is more you could do with the middle area to make it play alot better.
Some of the stairs themselves were pretty steep, meaning you slide down them without much control...


I've played this a little more now and I agree with these points to a certain extent.

The main area is rather open, i don't honestly see it as a problem but i can see ghouls point. In certain circumstances i think it could be largely ignored for most of the game.

For example : Tourney/competitive games : Two good players meet in a tourney, they don't want to risk even 1 death they don't have to. So they stay where they can't be seen/shot so easily - indoors. This could lead to the main area being used pretty much only for attempted spawnkills, or simply for sprinting across to escape your opponent. I can see the main area being ignored in alot of games. The BFG also is in a great vantage point for that area and the walls beside it make for some very easy cone damage.

All in all, i think a little more cover in the middle would do this map no harm, i think more people would use the whole of the map. The games i played all were fought around the ssg/bfg and the other end of that corridor. Hardly anyone ventured into the middle i believe because it does put you at a disadvantage. Especially with the lack of mouselook as i previously stated, the ability to fire rockets through the windows/up the (very steep) stairs etc would mean whoever was at the bottom wasn't quite so disadvantaged.

One last small thing that annoyed me, i reckon the lift by the bottom teleport rises too quickly. I dunno why, but it just didn't seem right to me.

As you know, i do really like this map. I do also i think some minor adjustments, done properly, would probably make it even better.
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still think that doing something about the middle area would destroy the map personaly i believe there is some areas to hide in. i think the open area gives people a chance to almost dog fight with eacother in an open area with no distraction to let people show off some SR. about the stairs just think of it as a drop off again in all of the about above 10 tests i have done mostlikely alot more i had no problem with steep stairs. but i guess it really does matter with the person your playing.

also with the middle area use your damn brain and think dont exepct the map to do the work for you by having something there for you to hide behind with ease. i made this map to max players minds when playing i believe having a balance of the map helping you out and using your own brain should make a good map. dont just use the same old tactics on everymap make something up on the fly or play with some bots or something experiment.

everymap has a place where people like to sit and wait in d5m1 it seems to be the bfg room, judas its eather the lower sgg or the high ssg. so having a spot where you feel you have an advantage isnt bad at all its Common. i cant force people with my map to go everywhere and not camp im not crazy enought to put moving floors to force players to move your the one who is going to have to do it.

also the choice on the no freelook is a gameplay thing again. no freelook gives the game more to think about. if there was freelook the outside would be riddled useless and stupid you could just sit up top and use the CG on them and the map would be easy to win if you had the ammo for the CG and SG
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Consigliori
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZERO99 wrote:


1)i cant force people with my map to go everywhere and not camp im not crazy enought to put moving floors to force players to move your the one who is going to have to do it.

2)also the choice on the no freelook is a gameplay thing again. no freelook gives the game more to think about. if there was freelook the outside would be riddled useless and stupid you could just sit up top and use the CG on them and the map would be easy to win if you had the ammo for the CG and SG



1) Clearly that's not what i'm suggesting, i'm saying you've got a nice big open space there and it could be used.

2)The outside area is as "useless" now as it would be with freelook because people camp up top with ssg anyway. This means players rarely go to the middle. Surely being able to fire projectiles up there could force them out, and surely it would help to spread the gameplay more evenly across the map

Once again i tell you, i still like the map the way it is.
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still think that adding something in the middle area wouldnt do the map anygood i can even think of anything to put there that would help the gameplay, just take some risks and go for it down there and experiment.
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Cybershark
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Righty... so I wasn't initially sure what to make of this as I was on a foreign PC and couldn't move for shit. Eventually got to play it under decent conditions and have had some notes filed away which I kept meaning to post.

The map is certainly quite uneven with its mixture of crampy corridors and that huge wide open space in the middle. scirmast and I concluded that this was generally a good practice as it gives players a variety of environments to work with where individuals will be able to use their varying strengths. And unlike something like DW5M1 the spawns don't favour any one area Smile
Still, I didn't feel that the tighter areas were always handled as well as the could've been. The staircase up from the teleporter seemed a bit too steep and I didn't like that it starts right on the corner. And just up from there, that Judas-esque metal column you have between the CG and SSG, while being a handy bit of cover could've done with a bit more spacing away from the wall with the angle you threw in there. It's fine once you're moving along the corridor but I kept bumping into it when I had spawned there. That may of course have just been me panicking Razz

Like Alfie and Ghoul said then I'd have prefered to have seen something more going on in that main arena. Still, it does mean the CG gets lots of mileage Smile People didn't seem to have gotten to grips with the plasma in the exit in the games i played and saw but that's good placement to be sure. BFG is interesting to get. Much fun to be had there although I've been shying away from it so far. No pickup items here... Nothing to say you have to have them of course. Maps like Judas do just fine without them after all.

The detail is nicely done - however it does affect gameplay in some places. Generally where you've added those rusty metal supports in then they're spaced narrowly enough that they don't cause players to fall into the gaps when they run along a wall, but having them stick out at right-angles in already confined space is a serious no-no in my book. Also the buttresses opposite the upper rocket launcher are a pain in the ass as you can slip between those cracks rather than just being able to slide over them as an unbroken wall.

As Consigiliori felt then I thought that lift was too quick also. I think that fast drop speed is fine for when you walk over it but that it could have done with being slower when pressed. Otherwise it's very much a Pobla lift that one.

Anyways, whatever my reservations then it's clear that you've really honed your skill in mapmaking which is great to see. 5 months build time you say? Yeah, I had plenty of those too. Good to know real thought is going into your stuff Very Happy

On a final, and entirely unrelated note, could you please post slightly smaller resolution pics next time? The filesize isn't an issue but certainly on my screen settings then the posts get stretched off the screen which means I have to keep scrolling the window left and right to read everything here.
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ZERO99
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HA! someone finnaly got what that metal peice was there for! its my little tribute to judas =D and some one finally got it! hurraaayy

i think the comments in your post cyber are 100% accurate although i dont really think the map is that uneven as people seem to think it is =S but oh well learn from mistakes and make a better product for next time =D

from the sounds of your concluding statements im on the right track in my early mapping career i have yet started another 1on1 map maybe it will be out some time in about 3 or 4 months heh depends how much i work on it every day and how the finnal product is and if i deem it good enough for public eyes. this next map will be smaller with the same little tricks and traps i like to throw in my maps.
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Czar
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i played this map a couple of times, quite liked it actually..so make more Wink
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Roscoe3000
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played this one a couple times. The way you've got that BFG placed is just handy enough to grab, but also just inconvenient enough to get fragged while grabbing it. Or maybe thats just me. Haha!

Its good work, Zero. Make more.
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