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Team spectating is badly affected by teamcolor overriding.

 
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Ch0wW
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Joined: 05 Feb 2013
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Team spectating is badly affected by teamcolor overriding. Reply with quote

Here is the situation:
I am in green team, specing a CTF match with color overriding (fullbright red for enemies/blue for allies).
If I spec a blue team, everyone is red ; aswell as the red team.

It's unbearable when to spec a match, and not really great for the eye on streamed matches.
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phenex2
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically this is not a bug. The feature does the following:
"color my teammates X and color players on any other team Y".

So when you are on the green team and spec a game between blue/red then the blue and red teams color will be overriden and they get the same color you specified in the override.

Same thing happens when you play 3/4-way ctf. you will not be able to distinguish between enemy teams you will only know that it is 'some' enemy.

Ideally you should disable the override in these situations as there is no perfect 'solution' for this and the feature simply does what it specified to do.

What we could do maybe is:
1. disable overrides when in a teamgame and maxteams > 2. this would solve the 3/4way ctf case.
2. disable overrides when spectating a game.
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Ch0wW
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Joined: 05 Feb 2013
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disabling this when teams > 2 may be a good idea, but that won't please a very few part of the community, especially for a 4 TDM match.

Plus, disabling color overriding when specing a game is completely nonsense.

Even a 3rd solution, which is simplier imo:

Quote:
Affect the spectator cam to the team a player is:

Ex: I'm white, the one I'm specing is blue, so it's like I was in the blue team, and see his friends in white and his foes in red.


You can get the infos when specing someone, so getting his team color and setting your screen on his teamcolor should be really easy to implant to match your settings.

If this is implemented, in a case of a 4TDM, it'll be not a problem, others stay as foes, his friends stays his friends. You frag, you win, whatever the people you frag.

In a 3-Way+ CTF however, you may be able to auto-disable it, both for specs and player, I don't think that will be problematic for the very few 3CTF+ players here.

just my 2 barreled-gun.
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phenex2
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ch0wW wrote:
Plus, disabling color overriding when specing a game is completely nonsense.


I dont mean the case where i spec a game and i look through the eyes of a player on one of the teams. this can be changed.
i mean the case where i remain spectator on green and look through my own eyes at a match between blue/red. what should happen in this case?
currently both teams will be overriden. so i look at a match between players where i cant tell who is who.
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Ch0wW
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, in this case, you're right, in a neutral view, disabling it may be a good solution.

However, on the other hand, you should restore the settings when specing someone.
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phenex2
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one more question so i understand this. should colors be overriden when i look through the eyes of a spectator at all or should the override only happen when you look through the eyes of a player that is actually playing in-game?

two examples:
i am spectating a game between red/blue and i am a spectator on the green team looking through my own spectator eyes:
i will not override and see the 'true' colors of both teams.

i am spectating a game between red/blue and i am a spectator on the blue or red team looking through my own spectator eyes:
i will not override and see the 'true' colors of both teams.

in both cases above when i spy on a blue or red player and look through their eyes i will override the team colors.

does the above make sense? to me its a consistent rule to only override when looking through the eyes of a player.
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Evolution
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm on green/white and spectating through a player's eyes, I'd say it's best to have no overriding colors, because I could switch view to a player on the other team and it might be a bit confusing when the guys in purple for example are now not grabbing the red flag.
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Ch0wW
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Joined: 05 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evo: I can't really agree with that. If you can't stand this, simply disable the "teamcolor overriding", and use it only in non-team ones.

phenex2 :

Quote:

i am spectating a game between red/blue and i am a spectator on the green team looking through my own spectator eyes:
i will not override and see the 'true' colors of both teams.

I agree with your idea, that was the solution we were talking about.


Quote:
i am spectating a game between red/blue and i am a spectator on the blue or red team looking through my own spectator eyes:
i will not override and see the 'true' colors of both teams.

I disagree however: As you already are on the red/blue team, you already know who your mates/foes are.
Some people I know are using those overriding features on red/blue specing, but some people aren't, such as evo.

A solution may be to add another client cvar to enable ghosting team overriding or not ( "cl_teamspec_ghostoverride" for example)


Quote:
in both cases above when i spy on a blue or red player and look through their eyes i will override the team colors.


I agree definitively with that Smile
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phenex2
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok this is getting REALLY complicated now. we will not add yet another cvar.

evo is right that when f12 is used you cant tell anymore what team you are spectating anymore unless you look at the scoreboard.

Ch0wW wrote:

Quote:

i am spectating a game between red/blue and i am a spectator on the green team looking through my own spectator eyes:
i will not override and see the 'true' colors of both teams.

I agree with your idea, that was the solution we were talking about.


Quote:
i am spectating a game between red/blue and i am a spectator on the blue or red team looking through my own spectator eyes:
i will not override and see the 'true' colors of both teams.

I disagree however: As you already are on the red/blue team, you already know who your mates/foes are.
Some people I know are using those overriding features on red/blue specing, but some people aren't, such as evo.


sorry we can't implement such complex rules. you say its ok to not override when spec on green but you want override when spec on blue/red ... what about 3way tdm and you are spec on green? this is becoming way too complicated and is far beyond the intention of this feature. i will not implement rules with 100 side conditions for all possible use cases.

let us take a step back and think for a moment what this feature is for.
it is meant for players so their enemies have a fixed color so they can be identified easier. so strictly speaking its meant for a playing player only. why does a spectator need to see the overrides at all when he can't interact with the game at all?

there doesnt seem to be a perfect solution so here are my suggestions:
1. override only when the console player (that is you) is in game and actually playing. no override when you are a spectator and spying.

so it would work like now ingame, but remove the anomalies chow described where players might see both teams having the same color when they are spectators.
you dont have any confusion when spying different players.

2. override when displayplayer (the player whose eyes you are looking through) is not a spectator.

this means you will see the override always when you look through the eyes of a player ingame. you will not see the override when you look through the eyes of a spectator.
this will cause confusion for a player that has overrides enabled and switches through players across different teams. he won't be able to tell what team he is on unless he checks the scoreboard, but you will always see the game with overrides as if you were the player you are spying on.


I would love some more input from people that use color overrides in CTF.
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phenex2
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

after talking to a couple of players that use the overrides they all favoured solution 1.
this means the upcoming version will work like described in solution 1.

solution 2. might be implemented later with a special cvar to enable it.
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