There has always been a problem with people--whether online or "in real life," where no one wants to discuss sensitive issues. While it's a defense mechanism, it also breeds sheltered and apathetic people that will respond to this kind of thing with a sigh and a half-assed "ah, that's too bad."
Well said. Apathy is a plague of the modern era with the overload of information and the access to all the horrific events that go on, daily.
After a while people just stop reading or stop pretending to care.
Yes, we live in a "civilized" world and people make mistakes...sure, sure...But why beat around the bush when the evidence is SO overwhelmingly obvious? I bet these monsters will have a state-appointed lawyer that will go for the insanity plea. It's even more baffling that such a thing will likely go through due to the nature of this atrocity. Why? Because "society" thinks that humans can only be calculating and premeditated in a positive manner. If someone took so much effort and care to execute a ghastly act (and worse of all, require the victim to write about it), they're instantly insane and can get away with it.
the insanity plea is an urban legend perpetuated by hollywood movies. usa is putting mentally retarded people on death row like snap and by snap i mean the police beating an admission out of them. and even clinical insanity means getting locked away in a padded cell, medication, repeated examinations, etc. you don't get away like joker in batman. even the heart of the sickeningly humanitarian european union (belgium) has put marc dutroux away for life and is practically sure to shoot down any parole pleas.
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:51 am Post subject:
Madgunner wrote:
To be fair, in a lot of these cases the children act like everything is alright in front of the social workers so that they won't get beat by their parents when they leave. They often don't understand that the social worker is there to help them.
I think you're doing kids a disservice there. Many adults in the same position would find it equally hard to speak out against their abusers. It's never as if the social worker is going to be able to hear anyone out and then, right there and then, say "OMG, that is terrible, you need to come away with me right away!" It's the fear of what will happen while due process takes - or fails to take - effect that keeps them silent.
Dew: Sure, the insanity plea in and of itself won't automatically mean that people will walk out into the world to commit more heinous acts freely, but it certainly can be a significant help in:
a) Avoiding the death penalty
b) Reducing the severity of the sentence
...both of which--in this particular case--may as well be freebies and quite a break considering what those fuckers did. Even if being declared insane means a lifetime of anti-psychotic drugs, straitjackets, and 5-star accommodations in the looney bin, that's heaven compared to what they truly deserve.
Ah yes, I saw the movie that was about that called "The Girl next door".
Horribly disturbing. To have your last moments on earth filled with pain and agony, no good person deserves that.
There has always been a problem with people--whether online or "in real life," where no one wants to discuss sensitive issues. While it's a defense mechanism, it also breeds sheltered and apathetic people that will respond to this kind of thing with a sigh and a half-assed "ah, that's too bad."
Well said. Apathy is a plague of the modern era with the overload of information and the access to all the horrific events that go on, daily.
After a while people just stop reading or stop pretending to care.
Does it? People die, often horribly and life in general could be described as strenuous, unpleasant, difficult, and trying in general. Does it suck that this happened? Of course, nobody wants that to happen, yet similar atrocities occur every single day, are you going to rant about every single one of those too? Why exactly is this one special, because its current, because it was directed from one human unto another, because it was a child being subjected to such atrocities?
Is it better for 2 million people to die in relative comfort than for 1 boy to suffer horrific punishments? What about 2000 people or even 2 individuals dying in relative comfort? In fact, you even suggest that killing one person can be somehow fixed by killing another, in what is certainly a horrible manner as well. Would you still condone the capital punishment of these people if they were insane? Would you torture an animal for killing a person? Torture is probably one of the worst things to exist, harm done purposefully from one being unto another and I am not sure that you can ever suggest there is any morality that condones or supports this. At least not any that I am willing to accept, perhaps your morals make such allowances.
Honestly this smacks of an unplanned emotional gut reaction but you have continued to clarify and defend your approach, making me think this is a legitimate view you hold. That is what disgusts me, that you can desire to torture another human being, regardless of what has transpired. Doesn't make you any different from them I think, except your reason is "right" (at least within your value system, its quite possible the parents thought their reason was "right" as well so make of that what you will). If we give up our principles, what else do we have?
I don't think he intends on TRADING circumstances around death, but people HOPE they die happy and peacefully. When someone is killed, or dies in a tragic accident, it goes against the "grain". Everyone deserves to die comfortably and satisfied with life. If you make the stupid mistake of killing someone, people aren't thinking about how comfortably YOU should die, they think of how there should be.... welll.... a sacrifice to the volcano of sorts, in order to feel like there was "justice".
If we give up our principles, what else do we have?
Your principles are different than mine obviously.
I see people who torture and waste a life of a child to be "people" who deserve no empathy or lenience or mercy.
Some people disagree and that there should always be room for mercy, but I'm not one of them.
I'm "better" than them because I see the difference between torturing and killing an innocent child and doing it to the horrific human beings who consciously did that. Let alone the fact that I don't commit those monstrous acts.
Emotional reaction? You bet your ass it's an emotional reaction. Sorry that we're not all indifferently un-emotional about stories like this. Not everyone loses the ability to think rationally with emotion, but I'm human so I get emotional.
Deal with it.
As for the rest of the world's problems, I don't shy away from speaking my feelings on them either. However, I was the one who brought this story to this forum, not you, so what does that say? At least I'm initiating a conversation about something that does matter. Instead of posturing about how one story is "small" in the large scheme of things and how it doesn't "affect me" and thus, not mention it.
It all depends how you look at the world. If you pick only bad things (like most newspapers/TV do all the time) then you think we are all doomed. But behind that shit is good, happy life. I have one kid and other is on the way and for me they make this world a better place.
Anyway I wonder how nobody didn't notice that kids are missing from school. System is sometimes really rotten and not helping you at all so I think that is the reason for me to have kids and to tell them to make this world/system better and to have respect to all other people no matter who they are.
Urm... and death penalty is a big YES for anybody torturing and killing kids, that even goes for USA/NATO army (afganistan, iraq, libya,...) but they unfortunately call it collateral damage... yeah sure. Like Srebrenica was collateral damage for some "people".
The idea of torturing more people (capital punishment) to correct / stop torturing itself..is there a point? Does this not seem silly to anybody? I'm not strongly against it, but how could you possibly think doing exactly what these freaks do does anything other than perpetuate the problem?
Basically what people are saying is, "we don't condone this type of behavior unless we get to do it ourselves." I fail to see this as a viable solution. The most disgusting part of this thread is the fact that a group of people are sitting here drooling over their keyboards at the thought of someone getting tortured.
The most disgusting part of this thread is the fact that a group of people are sitting here drooling over their keyboards at the thought of someone getting tortured.
They are? I'm the only one here who mentioned torturing those fucks and it was just one of many options I'd choose, including execution.
Don't twist the message by adding your own degrading tone to it.
I don't think anyone here would "drool" over the thought of torturing another human being. The point is clear, people like that don't deserve to live.
And in my eyes and in my opinion, they deserve the same thing to them.
Does it stay the hand of the next abusive father or mother? Probably not.
But the same can be said for any other form of "punishment" that the softer man would choose, such as imprisoning them for life.
Has any prison system in the world helped to deter violence or crimes by a significant margin? Nope.
Adding a depraved tone to my words because you disagree with them doesn't make you any more "right". I doubt anyone here is a sadist nor am I, and to imply such a thing is an insult and an antagonistic response to this thread.
an eye for an eye has no deterring effect either, you are delusional if you think so. it was invented thousands of years ago and it's a primitive, obsolete principle. do you truly believe mesopotamia or palestine of the old testament was free of crime? no, but the rule is so simplistic that even illiterate goat herders can understand it, so they asked for justice instead of carrying it out themselves, thus creating a neverending loop of vendettas. we're LONG past that if you don't count the most brutal islamic countries as developed and just. we're not saudi arabia, therefore we don't torture our prisoners.
we go by your methodology, here's an example - a guy is convicted of raping and killing a little girl. he's poor, dumb, most probably of coloured skin. the public is apalled, so the guy is tortured (i doubt even you would call for.. eh, a counter-rape) and killed. then more facts surface - dna test disproves his guilt, the main witness admits he wanted to get back at the guy, because he ran over his dog or whatnot, or we learn he was mentally retarded and police forced him into the admission. we have another apalling, disgusting murder on our hands! but who do we torture and kill now? the false witness? the lazy cops? the prosecutor, the judge, the executioner? all of them? such mistakes still happen on regular basis, so it's not even an "if" scenario but rather "when."
I don't consider myself a "softer man" simply because I don't agree with killing someone. I don't see how executing someone does anything other than comfort people who shouldn't be comforted at the thought of another human beings death, regardless of the crime they committed.
Quote:
we have another apalling, disgusting murder on our hands! but who do we torture and kill now?
Nobody!
This couple could just be plain fucked, but I don't know them. Not only does continuing the torturing not make much sense, I don't know what kind of environment these people were brought up in, what kind of drugs they could be taking, whether they know right from wrong, normal shit like that. It happens every day, unfortunately not everyone knows that these types of things are wrong like you or I do.
I still think what they did was one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard about, I just think they should be put in prison and evaluated several billion times.
It's not very comforting to know that there are people like this to begin with.
Having to make any decision or enact any sort of judgement or punishment isn't comforting either. Again, you assume too much.
The real difference between you and I and the others who feel we should allow people like that to live and serve their time is that I realize that Prison hardly ever rehabilitates anyone. I also believe in the simple fact that some people are more deserving of a chance than others.
But these people I don't believe "deserve" to live.
Just be thankful there is a justice system that is designed to protect the innocent, but even with it, people still get convicted that are innocent. It's uncommon but does happen and is sad that discrimination and labeling can take part in a jury's decision.
In situations where it's clearly obvious and there isn't much debate on a person's guilt of their monstrous acts, I don't see any redemption for them.
Again, that's where I differ. I don't "drool" over the thought of executing someone. I don't feel more "comfortable" knowing about their death.
I simply feel that they've proven themselves unworthy to live a life with the rest of humanity.
Are they mentally incompetent? If that were the case, it'd depend on the context. Were they drugged or drunk or are they literally mentally ill and require treatment? If it's the latter, I think it's wrong to put any mentally incompetent on death row. If it was drugs, then that's irrelevant to me.
I say "soft" because I don't flimsily teeter on the edge of judging other people but wanting to embrace everyone's "life" like a bad Star Trek episode. I'm a hard edged person and I simply don't feel some people have a right to live on our planet if they've proven that with acts like this.
I don't think there's ANY purpose served allowing people like that to sit in a prison cell.
I'm not Buddhist and don't think every "life" is sacred and worth conserving. I think some people have proven that their life is worthless especially when theyve robbed others of it.
It's interesting to see anyone who doesn't feel this way always tends to embellish their argument with blood-thirsty adjectives describing my stance. I don't get off on seeing other people die nor would I feel any comfort knowing another life has been taken. To me, it's a simple matter of fact that they've proven themselves unworthy to live.
As far as torturing someone else, I don't think much is gained there. I don't honestly believe there's much purpose to it and I spoke out of turn.
They just need to be shot and thrown away with the rest of the trash.
The real difference between you and I and the others who feel we should allow people like that to live and serve their time is that I realize that Prison hardly ever rehabilitates anyone.
yeah, what part of "life sentence without parole" did you miss? i realize some people are irredeemable or don't deserve a second chance, but i don't believe in murdering them for "justice."
Skitz0.X wrote:
But these people I don't believe "deserve" to live.
and i believe killing someone is the ultimate act reserved only for "me or you" situations. doing it for greater good of society is a dangerous slippery slope leading to oppression and doing it to satisfy my bloodthirsty emotions is primal and uncivilized. people can be punished without taking lives.
Skitz0.X wrote:
In situations where it's clearly obvious and there isn't much debate on a person's guilt of their monstrous acts, I don't see any redemption for them.
oh? i believe your judicial system requires the jury to unanimously decide on capital punishment cases. that sounds damn clearly obvious to me, because they are the only people deciding on the clear obviousness. yet, mistakes happen.
Skitz0.X wrote:
I simply feel that they've proven themselves unworthy to live a life with the rest of humanity.
well, we can't send them to australia or syberia anymore, but prisons still sound fairly divided from the rest of humanity.
Skitz0.X wrote:
I'm a hard edged person and I simply don't feel some people have a right to live on our planet if they've proven that with acts like this.
let's build a prison on the moon then! also even if you are the president of usa, you don't decide about the planet. i'm sorry, but our murderers will live. :(
Skitz0.X wrote:
I don't think there's ANY purpose served allowing people like that to sit in a prison cell.
oh, and there's a purpose served for other prisoners despite that "Prison hardly ever rehabilitates anyone"? i mean except protecting the society from them, because if that's the only reason, it's better to just kill 'em all, isn't it?
Maximum security prison just isn't good enough huh? That's where the murderers go, and they don't ever interact with the public again.
What if we're wrong about an alleged murderer? They executed countless numbers of innocent people back in the old days. Then they discovered DNA testing. Michigan, Illinois, and many other states abolished the death penalty after they realized how many innocents they executed.
Even if we are beyond a reasonable doubt that someone has committed a capital offense, I'm not comfortable with them being executed just because of how many times juries have sent innocent folks to fry.
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