Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Location: Oh god, what year is this?!
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject:
Sure. LOST has no writing budget and consists of nothing but plot twists overlain on top of each other, adding another layer of crap once every two minutes on average. Its primary market is people who guzzle energy drinks and have the sort of attention span that follows from such an activity.
I believe you forgot to say that you were "pumped" about it.
OFFCOURSE it has twists and turns, what the hell do you expect from a show?? And no writing budget... ok tell me, where does THAT say?? Also, I don't like energy drinks I certainly don't like little boys that pretend there girls, doesn't even graduated on high school and already think or want to be someone because their mom still make their sandwiches, so they pretend they are a scientist or think how to ANALYZE... if not, where the DEUCE do you get these facts
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Location: Oh god, what year is this?!
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject:
Your insults are true class. They wound me deeply.
However, on the topic of Lost, I'm really quite serious that the numbers of plot twists, of asinine problem characters, of flashbacks, and people with troubled pasts are just insane. It's like the writing team are trying to point out how trite action films are by taking everything to its logical extreme.
I can understand liking the show from a sarcastic perspective, but it's essentially self-parody. That anyone can handle the amount of suspense of disbelief not to start laughing insanely during recaps, or (as during some broadcastings) when frigging footnotes start appearing on the screen, referencing the events earlier in the episode, really makes it hard to believe the viewer's actually absorbing what's happening in the show.
In short, don't you find the constant "oh look, twist twist twist twist twist" crap boring? "Oh look, the main character just betrayed his best friend for no reason. But it turns out they were enemies and they never told us this before, even though it's been four seasons!"
The problem with over-use of plot twists like in Lost is that there's no smoking Chekov's gun to go back to and say "we could have seen this coming." Every plot twist in every piece of media ever tests the reader's willingness to follow along with what's happened; when used with a sense of self-control on the part of the writers, the readers are able to go along with the consequences and adjust. "The good guy just killed his best friend, dang; that puts all the other things he did previously in a very different light." We're able to interpret what this new action means for the character, in perspective of what they did previously.
But with shows like Lost, the plot twists come continually. The characters communicate poorly with each other, all have their dark little secrets, and it's practically impossible to predict what they'll do at the next major plot event. They lose cohesion, both because it becomes a challenge to keep track of every double-cross they've committed, and because they've committed so many already that we give up on trying to expect anything particular from them.
Outside the story, Lost is also killing an entire genre of fiction. By choosing to put way too much salt in their stories, the next show can either try to put even more salt in their material, or avoid salt altogether. Action films and shows have traditionally relied on one or two plot twists in order to make things really groove (e.g. the end of The Departed). Each new entry into this genre is going to be compared to Lost for the quantity of twists and depth of the plot, which has been doped by packing on layers of misdirection over and over again. That Abrams and co. would do this so boldly makes it pretty apparent that they're not trying to create a sustainable model for designing shows around. It's kind of like they're running after another "J. J."—James Joyce—in pursuit of the ultimate novel, except with naming characters after popular philosophers instead of allusion and allegory.
But I guess some people are too busy posting their 140-character-or-less pet theories about what's going to happen next to notice any of this.
Lost is garbage because it tries to be too many things at once. The only people who don't notice are those who aren't looking. Most television shows that remain popular know when to stop, garner respect because they fill a slot in a genre, and strive to do their best at being what they are. Lost attempts to break that formula, but does not manage to lay down a new pathway through the forest of possibilities with any substance because it was not planned reasonably; it just tries to outdo itself over and over again.
I know I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making you feel differently about this show, Spacepirate, but it really is crap, both from the perspective of "what makes a good story?" and "what makes a good show?" Too much mystery, too much intrigue. The writers just keep lying to you and you don't know when to break up with them.
Your insults are true class. They wound me deeply.
However, on the topic of Lost, I'm really quite serious that the numbers of plot twists, of asinine problem characters, of flashbacks, and people with troubled pasts are just insane. It's like the writing team are trying to point out how trite action films are by taking everything to its logical extreme.
I can understand liking the show from a sarcastic perspective, but it's essentially self-parody. That anyone can handle the amount of suspense of disbelief not to start laughing insanely during recaps, or (as during some broadcastings) when frigging footnotes start appearing on the screen, referencing the events earlier in the episode, really makes it hard to believe the viewer's actually absorbing what's happening in the show.
In short, don't you find the constant "oh look, twist twist twist twist twist" crap boring? "Oh look, the main character just betrayed his best friend for no reason. But it turns out they were enemies and they never told us this before, even though it's been four seasons!"
The problem with over-use of plot twists like in Lost is that there's no smoking Chekov's gun to go back to and say "we could have seen this coming." Every plot twist in every piece of media ever tests the reader's willingness to follow along with what's happened; when used with a sense of self-control on the part of the writers, the readers are able to go along with the consequences and adjust. "The good guy just killed his best friend, dang; that puts all the other things he did previously in a very different light." We're able to interpret what this new action means for the character, in perspective of what they did previously.
But with shows like Lost, the plot twists come continually. The characters communicate poorly with each other, all have their dark little secrets, and it's practically impossible to predict what they'll do at the next major plot event. They lose cohesion, both because it becomes a challenge to keep track of every double-cross they've committed, and because they've committed so many already that we give up on trying to expect anything particular from them.
Outside the story, Lost is also killing an entire genre of fiction. By choosing to put way too much salt in their stories, the next show can either try to put even more salt in their material, or avoid salt altogether. Action films and shows have traditionally relied on one or two plot twists in order to make things really groove (e.g. the end of The Departed). Each new entry into this genre is going to be compared to Lost for the quantity of twists and depth of the plot, which has been doped by packing on layers of misdirection over and over again. That Abrams and co. would do this so boldly makes it pretty apparent that they're not trying to create a sustainable model for designing shows around. It's kind of like they're running after another "J. J."—James Joyce—in pursuit of the ultimate novel, except with naming characters after popular philosophers instead of allusion and allegory.
But I guess some people are too busy posting their 140-character-or-less pet theories about what's going to happen next to notice any of this.
Lost is garbage because it tries to be too many things at once. The only people who don't notice are those who aren't looking. Most television shows that remain popular know when to stop, garner respect because they fill a slot in a genre, and strive to do their best at being what they are. Lost attempts to break that formula, but does not manage to lay down a new pathway through the forest of possibilities with any substance because it was not planned reasonably; it just tries to outdo itself over and over again.
I know I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making you feel differently about this show, Spacepirate, but it really is crap, both from the perspective of "what makes a good story?" and "what makes a good show?" Too much mystery, too much intrigue. The writers just keep lying to you and you don't know when to break up with them.
I changed my mind alittle about crappiness of Lost. If that story have so great power what it can make an allmighty Adereth to return to random forum and write an essay about it... at least it have something worthy in it, even if all mentioned worthyness is described above. Very pleased to meet again, Adereth, tho i know its not mutually feeling /!\
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Location: Oh god, what year is this?!
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject:
There seem to be missing sprites in your post. Maybe you should use a different IWAD, or check for 3D starts.
I realise it might not exactly be a popular opinion to hold, and I understand that there are reasons to like it, and that I'm probably being too scrutinous, but I'm pretty sure that the criticisms are valid. We can't quite say "it's just a television show" because it's trying to be much more than the average show, but there's not much else good to say about it, because it stretches its credibility to the point of snapping, and doesn't have anything meaningful to give us as an excuse for doing so, as one would expect in art or literature. All of the references to philosophy, art, and science repeatedly show up hollow (the most annoying of which is in naming conventions: Locke, Faraday, Hume, Abaddon...) and superficial.
If you, as a viewer of the show, had definite knowledge that the writers of Lost were just making stuff up as they went along, and had no plans for the show's direction beyond the next one, it would be more obvious that the entire thing was just built on getting a rise out of plot twists, and the whole thing would look trite and repetitive. It only looks like there's substance when you assume that everything was planned meticulously in advance, and the writers are slowly revealing many onion skins in their quest towards the final climax of the plot.
But: (1) why does that make the show special? Anyone can weave a complicated web just by trying to reconcile a bunch of random near-contradictory statements, and (2) the style of writing doesn't suggest that much planning is going on at all; in fact, it is much more likely that the plan for the series is quite weak. Regardless of whether or not the overarching plan is detailed enough to account for all of this, the episodes leading up to the climax simply can't hold enough meaningful clues to make it all comprehensible; you just have to assume that everything presented is going to be contradicted, and that every reasonable assumption you can make about the show will be wrong, unless it's about to happen right away. There are clues for little things that are about to happen, and clues for the biggest of things, like the numbers, but it's tangled beyond the point of seriousness.
I guess I can be left off the list of people who can't wait for it, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to berate Spacepirate for the rest of history for not being able to "FRICKING WAIT."
I'm a fan of Lost. The first/second season left plenty to the imagination (smoke, hatch, polar bear) and the character development was complemented well by the flashbacks. I do, however, have to agree with adereth that they made stuff up as they went along and there's a video where Nareem Andrews validates this. However, anyone could tell that the third/fourth seasons were lacking in any sense of direction and that it was being pulled out to gain revenue. The lack of direction is why we have so many twists - it's a bit of a mess but still enjoyable. Besides, I'm out for light entertainment; if I wanted a gripping story there are plenty of good books to read.
On a side-note, something similar happened to the Battlestar remake. Started off awesome and then died a death because the writers came up with the ending so late and lost their way. Unfortunately they didn't turn it round like Lost has. Shame.
I didn't hope my 'insults' would hurt you, rather make you laugh.
Back to Lost. You really talk a lot about plot twists, but I am now not convinced you actually watched the show. It isn't twists, the serie has over the seasons, mysteries, character developement and really just following a story. The argument 'twist twist twist twist' doesn't really get to me as I do not know what your talking about. Give examples, and betray his best friends?? Who what???
Now how I see it, is that Season 1 untill 3 are all introductions to the characters and the Island. Then slowly after each season you get mysteries solved and also characters that develope, that is what happening. Maybe if you mean by twist, is that now they are in a different time or whatever, I really like to that be explained. Other than that after season 3 it gets really Science Fiction (maybe you don't like Science Fiction, like a lot of people) and now untill Season 6 for the real PLOT, so there was always one plot...
ANYWAY your arguments are based on emotions, like you find the names 'annoying' ??? ok.... explain, also PLOT TWISTS, please make a list while your at it of all the PLOT twists... I like to know.
I really think your just not a fan of the show, maybe because you do not understand it, maybe you don't like science fiction, but don't just say they can't write and it is just like this and that, JUST like, yeah Family Guy are just random jokes, well, YOU MAKE SOMETHING THAT EARNS 50 MILLION BUCKS, YOU WON'T GET THERE BY POSTING ON ZD OF YOUR VAGUE OPINION.
So your actually saying, you just like series of movies that have one straight line to the plot and never have flashbacks, flash forwards or twists or anything else COOL.... wow, what a boring life
So far your arguments of not liking plot twists and saying they can't write really is stupid. A simple, I don't like that serie would do just fine.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Location: www.areashiftybun.com
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject:
enVision wrote:
A few brief points:
I'm a fan of Lost. The first/second season left plenty to the imagination (smoke, hatch, polar bear) and the character development was complemented well by the flashbacks. I do, however, have to agree with adereth that they made stuff up as they went along and there's a video where Nareem Andrews validates this. However, anyone could tell that the third/fourth seasons were lacking in any sense of direction and that it was being pulled out to gain revenue. The lack of direction is why we have so many twists - it's a bit of a mess but still enjoyable. Besides, I'm out for light entertainment; if I wanted a gripping story there are plenty of good books to read.
On a side-note, something similar happened to the Battlestar remake. Started off awesome and then died a death because the writers came up with the ending so late and lost their way. Unfortunately they didn't turn it round like Lost has. Shame.
I thought the BSG remake got it right, 4 seasons, not that many episodes, buta great story. The problem with the likes of Lost and BSG is that the explanation will never satisfy the curiosity of the inital mystery.
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