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whiteboy567
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dewww wrote:
yea, a friend told me the adaptation is very precise. don't get me wrong, the movie is brilliant and everything just clicks, but:

1. i was disappointed by last cca 15-20min segment.
1-a: the shortcut style after the mexicans hit on llewelyn left me wondering if they ran out of planned time and had to wrap the rest as soon as possible. i'm told the book isn't that rushed at the end.
1-b: yet, the ultrafast conclusion is followed by a totally nonsensical 'plottwist', i won't spoil it here, but that particular scene was just too absurd even for a coen brothers movie. i know it's taken from the book, but i'd throw the book away after reading that. talk about non sequitur. even it's logic is wrong, this one scene ruins it for me. it's like if deckard and rachel opened the elevator and a stampede of pink elephants ran out, with yakety yak for soundtrack :p i'm perfectly ok with tommy lee pondering scene, though Smile

2. Fargo is superior and i still think there's a large resemblance. i also like Big Lebowski more overall, but i wouldn't want to compare those two. i'm fine with NCFOM in top250, but i don't agree with it being higher than these two coen flicks.


EDIT: i do agree there's a drop in movies quality lately. or maybe we're just spoiled by the cca '95-'01 era that saw an incredible amount of witty original production. in my personal opinion it's because hollywood accentuates blockbusters more. the perfect example would be nolan - dark knight is an awesome and fun movie, but it's the fuckin memento guy doing a summer hit.

there are still gems in the dirt, but you have to dig deeper for them Smile let's say.. nick cave's australian western The Proposition with godly emily watson /i still haven't seen assassination of jesse james Sad/, aronofsky's audiovisual orgy The Fountain /the douchebags at the academy didn't even nominate it for the best score, heh/, del toro's alicesque pan's labyrinth which went straight into my personal top10, or my recent discovery, tarsem's The Fall which IS as good as the trailer Smile


Contains Spoilers:

Okay first off the IMDB list is a piece of shit list and should only be used as a guideline for recommendations, nothing more. Here's a much better list to go by http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_top100films.htm although even this one isn't perfect but it's alot better then the joke that is the imdb top 250.

Secondly the whole point of the film is subtlety and there's many obvious examples of this throughout the film such as [SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!killing off what the viewer thinks is the main character(In actuallity it's Tommy Lee Jones)without stepping aside and showing some dramatic hollywood like death scene.SPOILERS!!!!!!] Then of course there's the ending, which most most people would call an anticlimatic ending. Another subtle note is after halfway in the film you get the general idea of how Anton kills people, so they opted not to show it on screen anymore which was a brilliant move on there part.

Thirdly you obviously haven't seen many Coen brothers films if you're implying that the [SPOILERS!!!!!Car crash scene is absurdSPOILERS!!!!!!!] In actuality it's fairly tame for a Coen bros film. Check out Barton Fink or O Brother Where Art Thou! if you want to see some absurdness and borderline surreal at times.

I disagree with Fargo being the better film of the two but i guess that all comes down to personal opinion in the end. If anything, there first film Blood Simple has a bigger resemblance to No Country for Old Men then Fargo does. Same bleak atmosphere, similar landscape shots, plot revolves around stolen money and of course there's a hit man in it.

On a side note i gotta agree about The Fountain amazing film, really dug the soundtrack. Regarding Pan's Labyrinth, you should definitely check out Spirit of the Beehive and Neco z Alenky. Similar style of fairytales made for adults.
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Quiksilver
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pretty much think it was a fairytale without the hollywood happy endig. Real Life doesn't always have the hero win, and I think thats what they were portraying, a more surreal version of life, but at least fair as real life is.
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Vampire Knight
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, now that the floodgates to spolierville have officially been breached, ill give my account on the film.

Here are some "philosophical" thoughts that i sent to Quiksilver yesterday, amid his questions of the film:

*SPOILERS*

You're on the right track when you mention Chigurh's lack of remorse and overall "evil" demeanor. Take that to the a general level and apply the title of the film to it, as well as and the role that Tommy lee plays in the film (noting his words in the ending).

So its basically a case of that such evil exists in the world that men of Ed tom's stature and upbringing cannot face or deal with it. Hes either to scared, or too set in his ways to understand the sort of evil Chigurth represents. This could be extended to laws and regulations in regards to humanity, are we prepared for such "evil"?

Ed Tom's monologue at the end is a summary of the films underlying principal. Old men of his stature are outdated on many levels (psychologically, physically and training wise) and rather than face his demons, or "fate" hes better off retiring.

The main character that dies, hes the protaginist (remember the relationship such an individual has to the audience); think of the moral issues and situations he faces. Consider fate and the paths that maybe be altered by one choice or decision.

I believed he was killed to show the the mortality of us all. The good guy doesn't always win, "good" doesn't always overcome evil. There is injustice in the world. His decision to take the money, rather than save a life or just flee the scene, obviously set him down a certain path. The irony of the situation was that when he tried to save the man, he exposed himself to what would ultimately cost him his life (a cruel twist of fate).

Think about what the coin (which Chigurth uses) represents. Is it something as simple as good and evil? Or is it a device to ease his conscience when he kills, i.e. so he can blame it on "fate". Note the references to his "coming" or "seeing" him, its almost like hes fate himself.

What were the implications of when he killed without the coin? Was this to show his humanity; his weaknesses and frailities?

The clear distinction between Chigurth making a clean escape "into the open world", and Ed Tom retiring; beaten and defeated, shows that evil still exists and we haven't always got the people/resources to deal with it.

I think Whitey makes a good point when he mentions the subtlety shown in the film. As well as detracting from the whole Hollywood approach; subtlety can be far more powerful, envigirating and intense than violence, action and gore.

The main premise of the film does indeed revolve around Ed Tom (Tommy lee Jones). His failure to adapt to change and his inability to conquer his fears and face his "fate" head on, is encapsulated brillaintly by the Coen brothers.

*END SPOILERS*

As for the main character; that is cleverly left for you to decide. Depending on how, or how you want to see the film, anyone of the three main characters (Ed Tom, Chigurth, Llewelyn) could be your own, personal, main character.

Thats how i see the film.
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Twiztid
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fear & loathing in las vegas
big money hustlas
natural born killers
sweeney todd :D
the mist
final fantsy vii advent children
crank
and alot others i can't think of right now cuz it's 5 in the morning lol
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DarkeTiger
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiteboy567 wrote:
Contains Spoilers:

Okay first off the IMDB list is a piece of shit list and should only be used as a guideline for recommendations, nothing more. Here's a much better list to go by http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_top100films.htm although even this one isn't perfect but it's alot better then the joke that is the imdb top 250.


I agree that the imdb list is a load of crap, but what's with the other list having nothing but really old movies? All the movies in the top 50 are black and white
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dewww
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm impressed how this discussion turned out and i won't argue about small details in NCFOM anymore, because it would run more and more into a clash of personal tastes. [!!spoiler!!]i mean, i favour the car crash ending in The Man Who Wasn't There with it's morbid absurd humour over the chilling, but annoyingly disruptuous car crash ending in NCFOM. that being said, i refute whiteboy's claim i'm a coen bros movies noob :)[!!end spoiler!!]

thanks for those tips whiteboy, i'll check that spanish flick for sure. svankmajer i know, but not really enjoy. i just can't stand his animation style. but i'm definitely a fan of reality warping mindfucks.. how about A Scanner Darkly or satoshi kon's Perfect Blue.

oh and that top list seems a bit weird. i must admit i've seen like 10-20% of the top250 movies at max, but there's just too many super-oldies. and i hate kubrick's 2001, i can't stand the old comedies like All About Eve and i won't even comment on john wayne movies. seems to me that the director's just chose favourite movies from their youth, or the movies they studied most on art schools :) but hey, my taste was shaped during the chaos of the 90's, so my opinion might be tainted :)
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Quiksilver
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Dew, you're spot on. These lists have a lot of black and white films, but I gotta be honest, theres maybe 2 AT THE MOST black and white movies that I would even consider Good, the rest are sub par. I believe we cannot rate movies of a very different generation because we lack the upbringing and style of a country who watched them as they were released. Casablanca, I'm sure its great, for its time, and for all time, but as respectable and genuinely as well written as it is, I would flip the channel if it were on. I care too little about its hokey love story, "grandma's" dialogue, and characters that are as emotionally deep as my diabetic cat.

And likewise, I am prepared to worship movies that are being released now, that will one day be looked at as "too classic" for a reviewers taste. :S It happens. I will watch No Country For Old Men when I am 80 fucking years old! lol
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Geit-vd-plas
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

return of the killer tomatoes
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dewww
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ha, i respect and like Casablanca :) it's the one movie that transcends time and changing fashion. but i agree with your general idea. a few months back, i watched Freaks on tv and i was hyped to see the supposed classic gem. then i was disappointed. there's one scene of relative suspense, some grotesque genuine freaks of nature and a 'shocking' ending scene. it was probably groundbreaking in it's time, with new approaches that later horrors exploited and built on.. but it doesn't appeal today.

wow, i just realized that i criticize directors for preferring the movies they grew on.. and i'm stuck with playing doom and monkey island 2 over and over :)
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whiteboy567
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarkeTiger wrote:
I agree that the imdb list is a load of crap, but what's with the other list having nothing but really old movies? All the movies in the top 50 are black and white


Like i said this list isn't perfect. But your statement about there only beeing black and white films is not true. There's about 20 movies in the top 50 that are in colour. It's just the page maker decided to make them consistent by making all the pictures black and white.

dewww wrote:
thanks for those tips whiteboy, i'll check that spanish flick for sure. svankmajer i know, but not really enjoy. i just can't stand his animation style. but i'm definitely a fan of reality warping mindfucks.. how about A Scanner Darkly or satoshi kon's Perfect Blue.


Anytime. Scanner Darkly was an alright film, not really my thing but it was cool. Thanks for the recommendation i'll definitely check it out Perfect Blue at some point. Oh i also have The Big Country PVR'd so i'll be watching that sometime this week.

dewww wrote:
oh and that top list seems a bit weird. i must admit i've seen like 10-20% of the top250 movies at max, but there's just too many super-oldies. and i hate kubrick's 2001, i can't stand the old comedies like All About Eve and i won't even comment on john wayne movies. seems to me that the director's just chose favourite movies from their youth, or the movies they studied most on art schools Smile but hey, my taste was shaped during the chaos of the 90's, so my opinion might be tainted Smile


Again this list isn't pefect, i gotta agree with you about All about Eve and the overrated John Wayne westerns though. Actually i despise both of those series of films along with Citizen Kane. But i gotta disagree with you about 2001, I thought it was brilliant and is definitely in my top 20. Sure most of my favourite films were from the 90s at one point in time too but then i started exploring and discovering hidden gems and those movies from the 90s moved down from the top of my list, all the way to the bottom.

Quiksilver wrote:
No Dew, you're spot on. These lists have a lot of black and white films, but I gotta be honest, theres maybe 2 AT THE MOST black and white movies that I would even consider Good, the rest are sub par. I believe we cannot rate movies of a very different generation because we lack the upbringing and style of a country who watched them as they were released. Casablanca, I'm sure its great, for its time, and for all time, but as respectable and genuinely as well written as it is, I would flip the channel if it were on. I care too little about its hokey love story, "grandma's" dialogue, and characters that are as emotionally deep as my diabetic cat.


You've been watching the wrong black and white films Quik. You gotta find the ones that have aged well and are not sappy such as Sweet Smell of Success, The Third Man and Yojimbo to name a few. I could give you a list of black and white films that aren't sappy if you want. I'm only 19 so no being an younger generation is not an excuse you just gotta find the right films. I, like most people these days, had a prejudice against black and white films and even foreign flicks. Most of the time i would just brush them off as cheesy and dated. Then i started discovering the good stuff and haven't looked back since.
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Quiksilver
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard you mentioning Yojimbo a few times, I think you've sold me to give it a chance. I'm going to find it now. Very Happy
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Vampire Knight
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well its important that you don't hate black and white movies just for the sake of it. Each film should be given a chance and based off its merits, not matter what colour format its in.

Ill admit; i was the same, prejudice towards black and white movies, but, thats because i was brought up in a different era an i was influenced by what i saw, right? Well to a degree, yes. However, if you let go and open your mind, you'll be surprised at what you may find.

Films like Casablanca (Blade Runner is often referred to as a modern "Casablanca"), 12 Angry Men (please check this out Quik), and Citizen Kane, although undoubtedly ground breaking and classicly styled, they master the basics of technical film making and this is what preserves them throughout time.

Quik, you describe Casablanca as if its some low budget porn flick. If you really take the time to watch it, you'll see the character development, the emotional intensity, the classic dialogue and the engaging screenplay. Ok, so it might not be to your style, but in an objective sense; it is a very technically adept movie. Like with Citizen Kane, Casa's cinematography (lighting, camera work etc) added another dimension to it all.


Like Dew mentioned before; movies may seem more appealing back in the hay day, some my last longer, but it ultimately comes down to taste. I used to be in awe of Tron (as an example). I thought it was an incredible movie, right up until i watched it recently. The story was weak, there was no character development and the dialogue was cheesey.

Personally, i believe Hitchcock movies stand the test of time. Vertigo, Dial M for Murder, North by Noth West, Psycho, The Birds; these films define the term psychological thriller and i forever find them engaging.

Btw, if you even want a movie that crosses Sci-fi with Western vibes, check out Westworld; its one of the most underrated films of all time. Pure class.
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Quiksilver
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess all I'm saying is the acting in those days were harder to believe, rather than modern acting, which has the sole purpose of being believable! (although they fall flat in some cases *cough* Pearl Harbor *cough*)
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switcher
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the old black and white films have been and are colorized today.
They were originally made in black and white not for artistic reasons, but because color was not really a viable choice.
I can imagine this conversation happening in the 1930s, where the discussion would have been over the use of sound or not.
Anyway, modern black and white movies are done for artistic impact.
Sometime it works and is even fitting (Schindler's list).
Movies like this will never be colorized, whereas some of the older movies (It's A Wonderful Life) can not even be found in the original black and white version any more.
Anyway, as for favorite movie, my list would be too long, but I love those kind of movies that grab you the moment they start and won't let you even go to the bathroom (Psycho, North By Northwest, Resident Evil).
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Vampire Knight
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quiksilver wrote:
I guess all I'm saying is the acting in those days were harder to believe, rather than modern acting, which has the sole purpose of being believable! (although they fall flat in some cases *cough* Pearl Harbor *cough*)


Yeah, but Pearl Harbor just out and out failed beyond any negative standard. Speak of it not.

Thats your perception of "those days" thoguh Quik, it doesn't mean its true. Sure, they had a selection of classicly dramatic movies backs in the 20's - 50's, inspired by Noir, love stories and musicals, perhaps the commerical standard was slightly inclined towards that nature (by and large). But by no means all of it (check out Metropolis, thats the 1927 sci-fi film not the anime, for vison and imagery); i would hardly define ALL actors in classic thrillers or Westerns as being unbelievable in their roles.

You only have to know where to look, to find the treasure. Of course the treasure is defined by your own personal tastes. Please, Quik, watch 12 Angry men and tell me you don't believe the acting. If you watch and still don't, then i'll call it a day ; )

Im by no means an expert in that particular era(s), as i am soley dedicated to the 80's and 90's, but i have some knowledge.

As for todays acting? Hmm, thats a debate for another day, but lets say i find 80% of modern (2000+) cinematic acting unbelievably pretentious and ultimately crap.
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whiteboy567
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

switcher wrote:
Most of the old black and white films have been and are colorized today.
They were originally made in black and white not for artistic reasons, but because color was not really a viable choice.


That's a load of a bullshit, but i didn't expect much since it's coming from you, the same person who is trying to compare 1 key sr50, to cheating. I think Orson Welles said it best "Keep Ted Turner and his damn Crayola crayons away from my movie". Most of the original B&W films were done that way AS an artistic choice. Colour has been readily available since the 1930s.

switcher wrote:
Movies like this will never be colorized, whereas some of the older movies (It's A Wonderful Life) can not even be found in the original black and white version any more.


Another load of bullshit, geez you really are erratically spewing it out tonight. I'm staring at my black & white copy of It's a Wonderful life as i type this and I bought it last month. Do i want to see it in colour? Hell no. For someone who wants to keep doom as it was originally intended, I'd think you would of had the same appreciation for film.


Last edited by whiteboy567 on Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Quiksilver
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa lets not turn this hostile. (lol I'm even saying this and I love turning things into hostile debates. LOL!)

I think you are only half correct, because I can safely assume that Hi Def camera's were available quite a bit before it was used in mainstream film making. But not every studio felt it to be either "necessary" or "practical" due to budget issues. For example I know for a FACT that the Red Kamera used for high def filming, or even the Sony HVX200 which can record in hi resolution (my roommate has the HVX for his independant films) are rather expensive to rent. My roommate is loaded because he rents his HVX out for 2500+ a week. And that camera is no studio quality Hi Def camera. Anything better would be exponentially more expensive, going into the tens of thousands per week just to use the fucker.

So in essence, yes there IS an artistic quality in Black and White, but I think that was, at the time, it was being realized less than today, and they still didn't use it until the mid 50's as a mainstream way of filming. I think budgeting, and the idea that "color doesn't make a difference" was still a big argument, and it all kept color for perforating. But I garauntee not EVERYONE was saying "ZOMG COLORS AER SUX0R!!1 N00BS WITH COLOR CAMERA'S!!!! B&W IS THE SHIT SON!!!!" back then, they just couldn't see the why it was practical.

And Orson can say that, but how many B&W camera's do you think Turner Broadcasting has these days. 3? 4?

If B&W was the way to go, we would have never switched. We wouldn't want to have switched.

Oh and I Amazon'd Wonderful Life. . . . no Black and whites
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whiteboy567
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quiksilver wrote:
I think you are only half correct, because I can safely assume that Hi Def camera's were available quite a bit before it was used in mainstream film making. But not every studio felt it to be either "necessary" or "practical" due to budget issues. For example I know for a FACT that the Red Kamera used for high def filming, or even the Sony HVX200 which can record in hi resolution (my roommate has the HVX for his independant films) are rather expensive to rent. My roommate is loaded because he rents his HVX out for 2500+ a week. And that camera is no studio quality Hi Def camera. Anything better would be exponentially more expensive, going into the tens of thousands per week just to use the fucker.


Sure, there's the issue of colour being expensive to produce at the time. But if a director really wanted what he envisioned to be colour, he could of easily garnered support from the studio. Take for example the great Billy Wilder which you've probably never heard of(I wouldn't be surprised) he was more then a successful director. He could of easily colourized any of his films in the 50s and into early 60s. But no, he had an artistic vision and fulfilled it countless times. He did not use colour until 1963 because he realized Irma la Douce required it and wouldn't of worked in a B&W pallet. Another example of Billy Wilder is regarding the film Some Like it Hot, he was actually going out of his way to convince Marlyn Monroe into shooting it in B&W because the make up would of had a weird tinge to it, even though her contract said otherwise. Regarding Hi Def or Digital you have many popular directors protesting against it, who have more then enough to shoot film in those selected formats. Go ahead and search it up.

Quiksilver wrote:
So in essence, yes there IS an artistic quality in Black and White, but I think that was, at the time, it was being realized less than today, and they still didn't use it until the mid 50's as a mainstream way of filming. I think budgeting, and the idea that "color doesn't make a difference" was still a big argument, and it all kept color for perforating. But I garauntee not EVERYONE was saying "ZOMG COLORS AER SUX0R!!1 N00BS WITH COLOR CAMERA'S!!!! B&W IS THE SHIT SON!!!!" back then, they just couldn't see the why it was practical.


In essence? far from my friend. Take for example the film Touch of Evil or even The Third Man(Which i've mentioned earlier) both of these films would of looked ugly if colourized. The majority of these two films take place at night, and use shadows and lighting to build up tension. Maybe you're not aware but these would of not worked as well in a colour flick.

Quiksilver wrote:
And Orson can say that, but how many B&W camera's do you think Turner Broadcasting has these days. 3? 4?


Okay, cool. The argument isn't colour over B&W. I was clearly talking about the recolourization of old films. You've clearly missed it.

Quiksilver wrote:
If B&W was the way to go, we would have never switched. We wouldn't want to have switched.


I never said B&W was the way to go. What i'm saying is if the project requires it, then do it. I never said B&W films are better then coloured films anyways. What i was getting on switchers back about was again, people going back and colourizing these old movies. Also we've lost a genre when we switched to colour flicks, film noirs. Sure we have neo noirs but they're not the same.

Quiksilver wrote:
Oh and I Amazon'd Wonderful Life. . . . no Black and whites


Really then what the fuck is this. I must be seeing shit: http://www.amazon.com/Its-Wonderful-Life-James-Stewart/dp/B00005QCVY

Edit: I found another one: http://www.amazon.com/Its-Wonderful-Life-60th-Anniversary/dp/B000HEWEJO/ref=pd_cp_d_0?pf_rd_p=413864101&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00005QCVY&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0P15D3ZB0DBRSX75NPZ1 Jesus Christ you must be either blind or really fucking stupid. I'm still undecided on which.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GG DOOD Cool I agree with leaving old B/W films alone when it comes to that.

I always liked Hitchcock movies.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whiteboy567 wrote:
Most of the original B&W films were done that way AS an artistic choice. Colour has been readily available since the 1930s.

Available but not readily so.
By VIABLE choice I was referring to the economics of film making.
In the 30s colour films were prohibitively expensive, and the use of colour was more of the artistic choice, like when they used colour in "The Wizard of Oz" (1937) but only after Dorothy had landed in Muchkinland. Do you seriously believe that all the B&W movies made since the 30s were only done that way for artistic value?

whiteboy567 wrote:
Another load of bullshit, geez you really are erratically spewing it out tonight. I'm staring at my black & white copy of It's a Wonderful life as i type this and I bought it last month. Do i want to see it in colour? Hell no. For someone who wants to keep doom as it was originally intended, I'd think you would of had the same appreciation for film.

In this case, I was referring to network broadcasts of Wonderful Life, which have been the colourized version for some years now.
I never stated a personal preference for colourized B&W films in any case. Flaming me on such an insignificant subject only served to display your ignorance and latent hostility.
Find a good shrink whiteboy, there may still be time to repair your brain damage before you hurt yourself thinking.
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