ZDaemon Forum Index ZDaemon
Client/Server DOOM
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Persistance of ZDCTF map01
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ZDaemon Forum Index -> ZDaemon Help & Chatter
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
spacepirate
AssPants


Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Location: que pasa

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As it is funny as it is. You can not really compare with listening to music and gaming. I mean playing the same maps all over again doesn't say your boring or are simple. But it is in the routine and fun. If a player log in to zdaemon and he/she is in de the mood to play some ctf the person just joins the number one server with the most CTF players. And since there are always some geeks who fell in love with the maps are in it they also join.

Playing the same maps all over again I can understand that. Like many gamers play Gears of War where you have a limited map standard.

Only different is, there are other wads. I think most people do not even know.

As I already seen numerous people on this forum saying, we should play other ctf wads ! Most of them also keep playing zdctf, like myself because there aren't people to play with. What if we make up a plan that these numerous people will sit in the server and play on some time every day for a week. So people will see it and try it out.... I will be curious what happens.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
switcher
Spamming!


Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: DUI All The Way

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The simple answer is that most people play the same maps over and over again because they like those maps.
Right or wrong, ZDaemon players seem to have shown that they are just not interested in variety or new maps.
Most players get variety from doing other things in life and when they come to play ZDaemon they expect to see and play the same old maps they played last time.
Good fun maps are habit forming.
These maps become standards for competition simply because they are familiar to a majority of players and therefore lessen the chance of providing a map advantage to either side.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Rebecca
Spamming!


Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Location: NGC34

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I HAVE NO IDEA WHY.
but I love map01, it's the greatest thing ever <3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DarkeTiger
Spamming!


Joined: 07 May 2005
Location: In the falsetto Posts: Mail

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why use map01 in a clan war?
Why not use a more noob friendly map?

map01 is used because it is fast, different and tough, if you suck at it you deserve to be boned, and it being a 'slaughterfest' is good because it causes each player to adopt a different playing style and they learn to play better over time because its a tough map
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
WeaponX
Spamming!


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Location: Great Britain

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thing about that map is there are so many tactics, just a lot of people refuse to use them and think frags = flags which is completely untrue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Xenaero
Spamming!


Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: United States Clan: UniDoom

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The Persistance of ZDCTF map01 Reply with quote

TheMionicDonut wrote:
Which brings me to the subject of the matter. Map01. What makes it so special? Does it create virtual chess game style with multiple ways to get the job done when it comes to getting those those flags . No. Does it at all measure the skill of the people playing on the map. Hardly. Most scores on that map come from being in certain places at certain times. The map could be described as a barbaric slaughterhouse at best. While that does give it a nice ring, I again bring up map04, which in pretty much every case seen, has ended up with a higher frag count than map01. Why is it that people love this map so much over the 20 or so playable maps in that wad pack alone? (zdctfmp 1 2 and 3 combined)


In spite of my agreement with the widespread approval for the first two maps i talked about, I still die a little bit inside every time a clanwar or scrim consists of 01 04 08. And its not just because of 01, but that is the main one that gets my goat admittantly, because I know where it leads right after. Why is this map always picked, and picked first no less. I want to hear from all of those with a good (logical) opinion supporting or otherwise of the map. Maybe I am missing something important.


#1 is a simple number. A number that the subconscious mind picks out. What's the first number? 1. What's the first map? map01. You also see this map when you first load up the wad, if you go by map order. Map01 tends to be the 'intro' map that sets the standard for the whole WAD. This is my observation. You can take it as you will.

However, the first block of text irks me greatly, specifically, this bit.

TheMionicDonut wrote:
Does it create virtual chess game style with multiple ways to get the job done when it comes to getting those those flags . No. Does it at all measure the skill of the people playing on the map. Hardly. Most scores on that map come from being in certain places at certain times. The map could be described as a barbaric slaughterhouse at best. While that does give it a nice ring, I again bring up map04, which in pretty much every case seen, has ended up with a higher frag count than map01.


The tl;dr version:

1. Yes it does
2. No
3. You know, that's how most CTF maps work.

Now for a novel (Or something completely different):

1. "Does it create virtual chess game style with multiple ways to get the job done when it comes to getting those those flags . No."
What maps would you suggest, under the strain of two potent and powerful teams, that did not and would not become a 'virtual chess game' under the guise of a first person shooter? There are none. Look at any map played. It takes skill and strategy, much like the core fundamentals like a game of chess, to overtake and defeat the opposing team. You need a solid D that can move to to assist the flag carrier, a solid O to get in and get out with the least amount of time required, and a middle group that can assist either side, and escort the flag carrier. This is only one of many different layouts teams use, and all teams execute their styles differently. You can describe any map with this summary. What interests me is why you didn't choose map04 to be a barbaric slaughterhouse, or is that just you wanting to slam a map more than you already are? The fact of the matter is, there are multiple ways to get the job done, and they exist in every map. It is the execution of these plans that actually enables teams to score. You don't play a map and rush constantly, expecting to win. There are many, many underlying factors and strategies required to slowly inch a team's success towards the five flag score goal. Let me use my own current clan's practice game last night as an example. It was me and Gilgamesh versus Envy and Shadow_Ghost. We were initially losing. Why? Because we weren't working as a group, and ended up either rushing like idiots, or defending like idiots. In essence, boxing ourselves in constantly. This is the 'barbaric slaughterhouse' that we were setting up. Then it changed. I actually thought about the moves we could make, and instructed Gilga on what to do. Guess what happened with just a little bit of strategy to back the team? We instantly turned the game around. That's how CTF works. No map is a barbaric slaughterhouse, just because you can rack up frags. No map is not a virtual game of chess, as you put it, just because of the infinite possibilities that go into a team and their gameplay.

2. "Does it at all measure the skill of the people playing on the map. Hardly."
Did I miss something? I wasn't aware that Capture The Flag, a team-oriented game mode, measured the individual skill of players participating in the game. Look at the Stroggs on Meth team in Season III. That team consisted of RottKing, Cookies, Metalhead and Hatred. All of these players are exceptionally skilled, as you well know. So why did a team of these star players not make it to the playoffs to begin with? Why were they beaten out by eight other teams? This team, with these members, looked nigh unbeatable before the season began. Everyone visualized their power through individual skill stacking up through the members in the roster, as if it were a mathematical equation leading to a high sum. Completely and absolutely wrong. They were beaten out because they did not function as a unit. They did not work as a team. Individual skill, as shown with this one example, and countless others, counts for nothing in Capture The Flag. You can have all the frag power you want. You can have all the flag power you want. But nothing will ever change the fact that you need a delicate balance between the two, not to mention between the members themselves, if you want to come out on top. To suggest otherwise is not only stupid, but to also suggest that a single map shows the skill of a person or group of people, is completely idiotic.

3. "The map could be described as a barbaric slaughterhouse at best. While that does give it a nice ring, I again bring up map04, which in pretty much every case seen, has ended up with a higher frag count than map01."
Again, as stated before, it is not frag power that dictates what team will win in CTF. The only game mode where frags actually matter, is in the Team Deathmatch game mode. I have seen multiple runners with less frags than anyone else in map04. And they're the guys who bring the flags home. The majority of flags, or should I say points, comes from the defender's side. Also, keep in mind that map04 is significantly smaller and more compact than map01 and map08. Smaller maps mean more action, which means more points. Specifically for the defending side, which, with the new point addition, is always extrodinarily high. You seem to call this as a fault, because you think people are more interested in frag power than flag power? Again, completely and absolutely wrong. Frag power has never won a game on its own. Flag power has never won a game on its own, either. You need both, and in a map like map04 where the assault is endless on your home base, simply because the distance between a player's spawn, the subsequent SSG pickup, and the opposing flag is far shorter, much more frag power is needed on the defensive side. Plus, it's there. consider in map08 and map01 you don't spawn with SSG right away. That alone leads to more frag power on the get-go, and doesn't necessarily force people to deal with alternate weapons when the situation calls for it. I would call map04 less of a 'virtual chess game' than the other two, as a result. The fact remains, though, that you can't have flags, without frags. And you never will be able to. Some can argue that players like chewy in map08 get by fine without fragging, and end up scoring. But why is this? They don't have to frag, themself. Their style dictates that they can easily get in and out of their base, provided that there is frag support waiting in the middle or in the enemy's base. You will never win without frags. You will never win without flags. It's just how team-based games work in this part of FPS land.

Also, to touch on why these maps are constantly chosen? It starts out simple. A few people like a given map, and put it in a maplist loop. Others start playing it, and because people other than themselves play it, they choose to excel in such maps, making them the 'standard'. Why is this the standard? Anything is the standard when a multitude of players and clans vouch for it. This will never change. What maps would I suggest to practice on and get good at for clan play and general CTF craziness? All of them. That way, you're not caught off guard. Even so, I would heartily suggest putting more time into 01, 04, 08, and others like 19 and 27. Again, because they are some of the most played maps in the ZDCTFMP series. Most played because others play them. Do you want to play a map that no one else will? No. So you choose to get good at what other people are playing the most, so you can win. Winning isn't that simple in CTF. And it won't ever be.

Honestly, Donut, this was a pointless and stupid thread. What did you expect to change? If you don't like the fact that every clan today has at least one of those maps that you 'dislike', then I suggest you find a new game. It's going to be a hellish quest if you intend to change the way over 90% of players in this port play their clanwars. And it's probably not worth stressing yourself out over.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DX-Chain
Spamming!


Joined: 24 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gay thread...

Map01 and Map08 require significantly more skill than Map04. There are no SSG starts in 01 or 08 and the weapon variety is greater as well. And here I bring the old counterargument of "well if you learned how to play it, you wouldn't complain about it" because I know for a fact that it applies to you Smile.

The map is simple, and by mapping standards, probably classifies as "shit" as well, but I personally like the adrenaline rush from playing it. It forces me to be efficient with SG, sr-50, even a little rjump, wallrun and of course open-area SSG. If all you think happens on this map is people bunching up in the SSG pedestal, then you probably need a lesson or a reality check.

What's your next thread going to be? "The Persistance Of Playing 'DX Maps,' Recording Demos And Posting Them After A Clanwar" ? Rolling Eyes"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SuperNova
Spamming!


Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MionicDonut wrote:
Most scores on that map come from being in certain places at certain times.


I'm all for playing other maps and what-not, so I won't bash your post (though most of it is nothing but one big contradiction). However, this particular line bothered me the most out of your whole post.

Capture the Flag in general is all about the positions you put yourself in at certain times. If you've failed to gather this much, I would think that this suggests you lack an understanding and a great deal of expierence in this game. It's more or less a cry-baby post, pretty much on the same lines of "FUCKING SPAWN CAMPING FAGGOTS!" but a step even lower.

Complaining about the basic understanding of this game (not CTF, but pretty much doom in general) is what completely ruined your post and did away with any sort of valid arguments you may have had.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shakal
Posting Spree!


Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I despise map01 as much as the next person but making a thread about it is pretty lame, but then again comparing doom to chess is even lamer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swag
Spamming!


Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Map19 is used about as often as Map08 in the scrims we have. I almost always try to get Map11 in there as well Razz

Map27 is the most popular zdctfmp3 map which we've played quite often. I'd say Map04 is the most requested map. Map01 would be second. I've even gotten people to play Map21 in scrims never had that requested yet though. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
GhostlyDeath
Spamming!


Joined: 28 Mar 2005

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just start a standard where everyone is forced to play Map01.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
andymun
Spamming!


Joined: 13 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swag wrote:
Map19 is used about as often as Map08 in the scrims we have. I almost always try to get Map11 in there as well Razz

Map27 is the most popular zdctfmp3 map which we've played quite often. I'd say Map04 is the most requested map. Map01 would be second. I've even gotten people to play Map21 in scrims never had that requested yet though. Laughing

I find map21 the only enjoyable map in zdctf3


Last edited by andymun on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GhoulSlayeR
Spamming!


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shakal wrote:
I despise map01 as much as the next person but making a thread about it is pretty lame, but then again comparing doom to chess is even lamer.


ever so true Admiral.


Anyways, I enjoy games on map01, map04, and map08 just like any other Zdaemon player. I just can't play them all the time like some can without getting bored out of my mind, thus when the crave for different maps comes into mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Czar
Spamming!


Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Location: Bitchez, they come and go; But Zdaemon is forever

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its just a map. its just a wad. its just a game. quit if it if u cant handle the truth. bai

(THIS TOPIC SHOULD BE IN THE OFFTOPIC AREA)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
revstar
God like!


Joined: 16 Jan 2007

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhoulSlayeR wrote:
Shakal wrote:
I despise map01 as much as the next person but making a thread about it is pretty lame, but then again comparing doom to chess is even lamer.


ever so true Admiral.


Anyways, I enjoy games on map01, map04, and map08 just like any other Zdaemon player. I just can't play them all the time like some can without getting bored out of my mind, thus when the crave for different maps comes into mind.


a man after my own heart. it's time to fight the war! f*** the norm. boycott map01 !!!

no not really, i do like those maps. but i've decided to boycott playing those maps when they are skipped to (vote/rcon). we play 1, 2,4,8 and then start again :/

but to all the people who dont like the repetitive maps - whinging does help Razz. but callvote is starting to drive me insane. is there a way to turn it off after you vote? inevitably it gets changed because its 1v10
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andymun
Spamming!


Joined: 13 Mar 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

revstar wrote:
GhoulSlayeR wrote:
Shakal wrote:
I despise map01 as much as the next person but making a thread about it is pretty lame, but then again comparing doom to chess is even lamer.


ever so true Admiral.


Anyways, I enjoy games on map01, map04, and map08 just like any other Zdaemon player. I just can't play them all the time like some can without getting bored out of my mind, thus when the crave for different maps comes into mind.


a man after my own heart. it's time to fight the war! f*** the norm. boycott map01 !!!

no not really, i do like those maps. but i've decided to boycott playing those maps when they are skipped to (vote/rcon). we play 1, 2,4,8 and then start again :/

but to all the people who dont like the repetitive maps - whinging does help Razz. but callvote is starting to drive me insane. is there a way to turn it off after you vote? inevitably it gets changed because its 1v10

Suck it up rev Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DX-Chain
Spamming!


Joined: 24 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voting is nice and all, but for a vote to count you must be IN the game. Basically you can have a packed 16-player server, but if you're the first one to actually press spacebar and join before anyone else, you can call a vote and it will take your vote as 100% of "required" votes.

I've tried this in some instances and the other people in the server thought I was cheating or had rcon access because they wouldn't notice the voting screen at the bottom right. I can get a "Vote Now!" sound for the announcement if necessary, but there isn't one at the moment Sad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cybershark
Spamming!


Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Czar wrote:
its just a map. its just a wad. its just a game. quit if it if u cant handle the truth. bai

What? Nobody is saying the game sucks, just what's played on it.
Maps and WADs<the game.

Tuomio wrote:
TOO BAD THAT SOME PEOPLE ENJOY SAME SHITTY MUSIC WHAT THAT SHITTTY RADIO STATION PLAYS

Guess you're so busy listening to that shit that you're not actually hearing what I'm saying eh?
Now go read again the part about what Radio 1 did in my last post. Granted it was on a national holiday so not all of the regular listeners would be tuning in but there's still two things that come out of it:
    1) Why should the people who like more obscure types of music have to stay up until 2am every day if they want to hear it?
    2) Like I said, it wasn't a deliberate attempt to piss off the daytime listeners with Drum & Bass, Heavy Metal, etc. The idea is that the daylight people would get to hear things they wouldn't normally and (Surprised) might find that they enjoy them.

Now unless you're really dense then you'll appreciate that the same could hold true for maps too.

switcher wrote:
The simple answer is that most people play the same maps over and over again because they like those maps.
Right or wrong, ZDaemon players seem to have shown that they are just not interested in variety or new maps.

Sorry but that's just bollocks. If that were the case then how did the maps of Doom2 ever get accepted? Why did anyone even care when the DWANGO compilations were released? And how the hell does CTF get played at all?

To say that it was ok to accept newer things back then but not now is just plain ludicrous. Besides, we're not even talking new here - why for example is ZDCTF map30 not as popular as map01? I know where I'd rather be...

Or to follow Doom 'logic' then maybe the only way to get people interested in something other than ZDCTF map01 is to remake it with a bigger outside area that loops around the front and a half dozen more SSG spawns. Sure it'd be a brand new map, but I hear that kind of thing goes over rather well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Czar
Spamming!


Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Location: Bitchez, they come and go; But Zdaemon is forever

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cybershark wrote:
Czar wrote:
its just a map. its just a wad. its just a game. quit if it if u cant handle the truth. bai

What? Nobody is saying the game sucks, just what's played on it.
Maps and WADs<the game.


if u dont like whats played on it then leave.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
K!r4
Dominating!


Joined: 24 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys who are whining about the maps played in ctf just have to create their own servers (with their own 1337 maplist) and make advertising, that's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ZDaemon Forum Index -> ZDaemon Help & Chatter All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group