Every player has their own map that they are truly good at. I was thinking that it might actually be pretty cool and show true skills if in a future ZDDL tournament we have maps no one has ever played, no one has ever seen and no one has ever known about. Have some good mappers make maps specifically for ZDDL, the maps would not be made public until the start of that ZDDL. No one would really have an upper hand(maybe mappers of course if they chose to join). Seeing someones ability to adapt to a foreign map takes more skill in my opinion.
There is always gonna be an advantage for someone any way you twist the rules, in your example, those with most time on their hands would get most practice(even in between actual league matches) on those maps and gain a certain advantage that way.
I think having a very well known maps in the selection is the lesser of the two evils because by now, everyone has had enough playing time and practice on all of them. For you idea to work, you would have to introduce a new map for every single league match, then yea, the playing field would be most even.
Joined: 07 May 2005 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject:
Kilgore wrote:
Some random thoughts:
If Niv's beef is really with the dmflags and other settings, then why did he register in the first place? wouldn't it be more honest to complain about that before hand and avoid registering?
Suppose that the beef is indeed with the dmflags: this was organized by jkist, chaindude, et al. Aren't they free to choose any settings they like (just like Niv did when he announced his own league)? why do we need a fight whenever such things are determined? if the settings are not popular, then people won't join: it doesn't get any simpler.
While the settings are not fully OS, you cannot call them NS either (NS without mlook or respawning items... isn't that rather weird?).
Is it surprising that people are increasingly turned off (and away) by all this drama and negative attitudes? does it really have to be that way, when all it takes is a little civility?
The settings were not known to me prior to signing up to the tournament.
Of course they are free to choose any settings they'd like. And what's the big deal if I ask for a separate tournament next year to use Doom settings? Other people were interested in having this happen as well.
I also didn't call their settings "NS", I called them "Zdoom"-like.
And Kilgore, as somebody I unequivocally respect, this has to be the first post you've made that I disagree with.
Yes--the current map statistics don't tell the entire story in regards to what the players' "favorite" maps are. However, once we reach the end of this season, it'll be interesting to see what the map stats data really yields. This of course in regards to changing/evolving trends, fads, or newly-established attitudes towards maps within each division. Will the experienced players adopt the newer (Lazarus, or a future 5th-spot map[s]) or less-played (e.g. D2Map01 for the new generation of D5M1 aces) maps on the list? Or will the new players adopt the older maps on the list?
I'm confident we can find answers to these types of questions as the league progresses. In any case, it's safe to say that all players gain more than they lose, whether that's experience on a map/set of maps or to build friendships as well as healthy, on-going rivalries with fellow ZDaemon players .
Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1
Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject:
I know it seems like an almost "default" map for most games, but I'd even be tempted to drop D5M1 just to see what happens, and maybe introduce something like king1 (personal preference); but still, it would be interesting to see change next season, but then again, it would be just as good to see the same similar things you're doing so right this season! Nomatter what idiots such as * would like to say about this, I'm sure we can all once again agree, that this league has been run correctly and all decisions have been stood by, by it's contenders.
Also, mega OS settings can only really be played on Doom2.exe, which I can't see happening. Oh let's just remind ourselves of something...
* ZDAEMON DUEL LEAGUE *
I still don't remember anyone other than * comparing this ZDaemon league to 100% OS settings, which once again, isn't what this is about. Settings are bollocks, they're all the same for everyone. Deal with eeet.
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject:
JKist3 wrote:
Unlike Cybershark said, I don’t think map01 and d5m7 are doing very poorly in the league. They are being played less so far, but it’s not that bad, they are still getting significant playtime. In my opinion, for these stats alone to bring about a serious consideration for map removal would mean there has to be quite a notable difference (say 4 maps are getting picked about 50 times each, and one other map has only been picked 3 or 4 times).
sure, they're not doing terribly. but could something else be doing better?
to currently have Lazarus (which could still turn out to be a passing fad) as the sole representation of everything post DW5... Jesus, that's eleven fucking years!
i won't dig at Lazarus here but do you have any idea how conceited and skewed that looks? and i'm not saying that it's favouritism towards or by Chainy, just that you're disrespecting every map made and game played on it in the interim. no-one made anything as good as that in over a decade? please...
i'd strongly urge you to get better educated by at least taking a wander through the following compilations of 1on1 maps:
Classix (the collected Mancer series)
Lethal Awakening (Dominion's pic of the best 1on1 maps of all time)
Skirmish (Russian compilation of 1on1s)
Unlike Cybershark said, I don’t think map01 and d5m7 are doing very poorly in the league. They are being played less so far, but it’s not that bad, they are still getting significant playtime. In my opinion, for these stats alone to bring about a serious consideration for map removal would mean there has to be quite a notable difference (say 4 maps are getting picked about 50 times each, and one other map has only been picked 3 or 4 times).
sure, they're not doing terribly. but could something else be doing better?
to currently have Lazarus (which could still turn out to be a passing fad) as the sole representation of everything post DW5... Jesus, that's eleven fucking years!
i won't dig at Lazarus here but do you have any idea how conceited and skewed that looks? and i'm not saying that it's favouritism towards or by Chainy, just that you're disrespecting every map made and game played on it in the interim. no-one made anything as good as that in over a decade? please...
i'd strongly urge you to get better educated by at least taking a wander through the following compilations of 1on1 maps:
Classix (the collected Mancer series)
Lethal Awakening (Dominion's pic of the best 1on1 maps of all time)
Skirmish (Russian compilation of 1on1s)
As far as I am aware all the maps were voted on by the IDL players, clearly enough people liked Lazarus. I only point that out because you seem to be targeting Jkist3 for that decision.
Unlike Cybershark said, I don’t think map01 and d5m7 are doing very poorly in the league. They are being played less so far, but it’s not that bad, they are still getting significant playtime. In my opinion, for these stats alone to bring about a serious consideration for map removal would mean there has to be quite a notable difference (say 4 maps are getting picked about 50 times each, and one other map has only been picked 3 or 4 times).
sure, they're not doing terribly. but could something else be doing better?
to currently have Lazarus (which could still turn out to be a passing fad) as the sole representation of everything post DW5... Jesus, that's eleven fucking years!
i won't dig at Lazarus here but do you have any idea how conceited and skewed that looks? and i'm not saying that it's favouritism towards or by Chainy, just that you're disrespecting every map made and game played on it in the interim. no-one made anything as good as that in over a decade? please...
i'd strongly urge you to get better educated by at least taking a wander through the following compilations of 1on1 maps:
Classix (the collected Mancer series)
Lethal Awakening (Dominion's pic of the best 1on1 maps of all time)
Skirmish (Russian compilation of 1on1s)
I'm going to have to agree with Cybershark on this one. I find lazurus to be a sub-par map, and way overrated. I believe that there are much better maps out their for 1on1 play.
Like Shakal said, it was voted on, by the ZDDL players. So its kinda hard to point a finger at just one person. Lazarus has gotten ALOT of play, I've seen numerous ZDDL matches take place in that map. So it seems like the people who dislike that map are the minority. Like I always say, you dont like that map because you suck on it .
-Haha, I wasnt even thinking, cant belive I made that mistake .
Last edited by MetalBlack on Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think you guys mean ZDDL players*, not IDL players . One simple thing to keep in mind about maps (now or in the future) is that you are free to do a variety of things:
a) Complain about the map to the rest of the ZDDL players, as it is their input that subsequently puts a map on the 5th spot.
b) Complain to Jesus, the virgin Mary, and the holy spirit that you may have to play some maps you dislike, and for them to guide you through and grant you a miracle.
c) Let your game do the talking, and work on your weaknesses in particular maps in order to become a well-rounded player.
Which of those sound more feasible?
There was a similar discussion about the map selection process, but that's on the Doomed Earth forums. I'll paste/reiterate some of the stuff there over on this thread, but when I return from work (or J/Fast can reply in the interim).
I think Chaindude explained things pretty well with his 3 choices for action
One interesting note:
Cybershark: It seems from previous posts that you dislike most all maps in zddl. You gave us 3 other wads to look at instead. However, the zddl "core" maps are in these wads. In fact, in skirmish4d (which btw thank you very much for showing. It seems to have all 1v1 maps in the world), the 4 core maps of zddl are the first 4 maps in the wad. I didn't know of this wad when making the maplist for zddl, but I doubt the match up is a coincidence. (btw how do you go to maps higher than 99 the wad?)
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:
Admiral-Shakal wrote:
As far as I am aware all the maps were voted on by the IDL players, clearly enough people liked Lazarus. I only point that out because you seem to be targeting Jkist3 for that decision.
no, not at all Shak. well, some obviously but no more so than others. he was just the guy to quote.
and Lazarus just seems like it could still only be a 'flavour of the week' thing, idk. i mean how many people play TLSDM any more?
as far as the voting system, yeah i saw it in progress. while it was quite democratic then there were always elements of "but map01 is shit" vs "i wanna play SSL2" (for a couple of examples). the results were no great surprise as what's currently (and in several cases perenially) popular made it through.
is that to say that what's up there will provide the best games or that other maps wouldn't have been just as solid? hell no. is DW5M1 a better map than DW6M1? hell no.
so the only solution i can see here is a larger map pool.
Jkist, yeah i knew that your core maps were in Lethal and Skirmish. the point is that so are ~20 other maps
yeah i dislike those core maps because they remain popular for having always been so. for saying this is the ZDDL then it seems all most folks wanna do is party like it's 1995 and they're back on DWANGO (albiet with funky settings). respect to you guys for putting Lazarus in in that regard.
as to your query: there are 'only' 99 maps in there. didn't realise it'd gotten so high actually as it was an older version i looked at.
(btw how do you go to maps higher than 99 the wad?)
At this point, I believe ZServ only supports up to 32 maps in a rotation. When you have a gargantuan WAD with over 32 maps that you'd like to put in a rotation, you then rely on the MAPINFO lump, which has automatic pointers that take you to specific maps:
Code:
map map04 "Lazarus"
sky1 e1sky 0.0
music d_map04
next map05
map map05 "Generic Map05"
sky1 blah 0.0
music d_map05
next map06
...And so on.
One can implement a custom map rotation on a separate PWAD (say, "rotation.wad") in case the original work didn't include a MAPINFO lump.
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Location: Oh god, what year is this?!
Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject:
Yes. However, remember not to call this WAD "r.wad" if it is being used as an optional on a Russian FFA server with EXP and no download link (Adding a download link does, of course, solve all such problems.)
I wouldn't mind having more varied maps but it eventually comes down to choosing unproven maps over classics. For a duel tourney like the ZDDL I think more than 7 maps is nuts, 3-5 is probably best. The monthly ZD duel tourneys take care of people playing less popular maps. The ZDDL will likely always focus on more "popular" maps.
Cybershark: You strike me as a guy who would never be satisfied with maps. Even if we used all new maps next season I have a feeling you'd be saying we should change again the season after.
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Location: off the grid, but still fighting for the users!
Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject:
guilty i guess
i think your core maps idea is totally at odds with my thoughts on the matter. i just feel that with this currently being 'the place to be' for seriously ranked 1on1 matches that the players (and a vast quantity of maps) are being done something of a disservice.
it'd be cool to have some really obscure (but proven) map used for tiebreakers at least.
but ultimately this is what the players agreed on when they signed up so i'll shut up for a while
Lazarus is certainly popular, but it was chosen over maps that have also been played millions of times over the years. I didn't see any real new and fresh maps up for inclusion besides Laz .
When i was in the process of joining the league I was asked to submit maps that I would like to see in the zddl...so I don't think they were chosen arbitrarly
To go on I was also given the choice to go into div 3 or 4, I chose the ladder because anyone who knows me knows I never play 1 on 1 inless its tlsd.
With that being said in the days leading up to the league start I was praticing dw5mp7 hard yet I chose to wing it on the other maps, I think I beat a guy whom is probably better then me in 1 on 1 and I am still undefeated on lazurus. This means you don't really know what can happen and you should just play, if your as good as you think you are then you will be bumped to where you need to be. I think I can outright say that your placement in division 2 has nothing to do with the beef you and chain have niv. Jkist came to me at the last minute and was asking me which div bloodstrike should be in because he has him slotted for div 2 but hasn't really played him accept once. I told him to put him in div 1 but to the best of my knowledge he has yet to win a game. This is the same guy I watched hold it down for hours on dw5mp1 against bad and good players. Yet in the zddl he seems to struggle on other maps. (why is this important?) well everygame is not on dw5mp1 as every game wont be on d2mp1.
I think you should just play your games before october 14th or w/e and see where you stand after the first half of the season or w/e. You seem to be an intelligent guy so I don't see why you would continue such a ridiculous arguement...we are all here to play and have fun man so lets just play. I'll play you on d2mp1 doom settings w/e that is if you wish to I;m actually curious to see what all the fuss is about.
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