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Improve render system

 
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RaVeN-05
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Joined: 17 May 2010
Location: http://www.hexenmod.net/

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Improve render system Reply with quote

First of all i am very sorry about anything that hurts you or can.

"Don't expect to be taken seriously if you can't distinguish (1) bugs from feature requests and (2) software from hardware renderers." by Kilgore.

Okay now i am seriously as never before.

1. I am wrong about posting it as Bugs its really feature request.
And serious moderators and staff here should know it and help unexperienced users to move topic on right place.

2. All source ports tested using software render, no hardware renders.

Original messages:

ZDaemon currently have a ugly render code.

1. Its slow, at 1680x1050 it has 30 fps mostly, on my PC with uncapped FPS, with capped fps i have 32 fps wtf?
2. I am using virtual 320x200 option is on to have 60 fps but even with that fps is dropping some times too.
3. I am use Windowed mode and even this doesnot have original resolution it uses something like 1680x1025, i can use once fullscreen when i quiting from game or change it to window mode my os WinXP SP3 crashes with BSOD.

The best software renders:
1. Zandronum at fullscreen 1680x1050 produces way more than 60 fps. The most fastest software render.
2. Zdoom same as Zandronum but a little bit slower.
3. Odamex a little bit slower than zdoom.
4. ZDaemon the most slower.

I tested all ports at one map, results:
Zandronum 140-175 fps (min, max)
Zdoom 120-138
Odamex 59-96
Zdaemon 37-59 (32-47 at my home PC AMD+ATI)
(all test performed on notebook intel+nvidia)


Please backport software render to ZDaemon from some other source ports that have faster software rendering system.
Please optimize it as much as you can =(. It hurt my eyes i cant enjoy playing ZDaemon multiplayer. I am hope.

I am not tested prboom-+ and Eternity. So, if there is really faster, please backport rendering system from one of these source ports.

All tests performed on clean Windows 7 installation.
The results is truth.

Edit:
Tested Eternity not fastest ever software renderer.
Prboom-+ cant count fps, how to do that? But feels not faster than Eternity even.

But even prboom and eternity i very good base to backport their render system to ZDaemon.
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, let's continue here....

Dewww :

I already told you that I don't like that wad... it might be nice but it does not fit my interest to do it.... I know you're old-school boss at mapping with knownledge of every single trick... but you don't know the true abilities of zdaemon engine ... aka there are few exclusivites and few really engine specific ways of modding... there are cool zdaemon wads that are using them (Let's say doomer's teh-base or xsnake's castle of hassle, or Sr69's Horde2 or many JCD's/Ch0wW's event games). It is true that zdaemon misses a wiki (hopefully there will be some nice one in future) but that doesnt mean that = zdoom 1.23 ? ill better stick with dehacked. Try more to investigate then you find that its not entirely impossible >).

RaVeN-05 :

I'd like you to post some demo wad with some specific scene where you compared you're FPS... To me it looks like very silly since you propably used OpenGL in zandronum... cuz I can't believe that it is faster then zdaemon one (but it might have few extra features)... zdoom has not same render as zandronum... not at all... zdoom uses improved but still kinda original its itself software render trying to remain classic. Odamex uses SDL libraries to run on as many platforms as possible (freebsd, linux, even maybie amiga OS who know Very Happy). And about zdaemon render... i noticed this... Sometimes you can get "Direct3D error <something>", sometimes it for some reason don't work on some specific machines and i am getting low fps in wine (but thats fault of wine or i am missing something i guess) but overall when it works it works greatfully, it could get accelerated render (for antialiasign or other stuff).

and in uncapped fps there is sometimes not that smooth movement of sectors for who know what reason, and sometimes "floor jitter effect" occurs
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RaVeN-05
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Joined: 17 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure i am use gl_nogl true in zandro and its lead to DirectDraw i have ATI tray tools that prints over any API, what API used and FPS + screen resolution depth color ahd hz of monitor.

in openGL i have 200+ fps as max.

OpenGL can't be implemented here due to afraid of cheaters. Not sure if anyone wants to cheat here in old games. The render that somehow smooth (not fully) like opengl is on unreal 1 engine (and this is software).

Lets skip opengl its nice but pointless to discuss here.

Again only software renderers used!

Would be nice to retest on special map.
P.S. What API cant be hacked?

P.P.S. Beside unreal the next amazing thing in software renderers is vavoom source port 1.30 it has ability of true 3d geometry in software render mode, its slow but it doesnot distorts world when you look up or down.
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm nuu its not pointless actually the main reason of sum haxors was open-source (so far i know) ... The OpenGL render could be used for wallhacking (aka its not that hot like in other games), and noone is against it ... I think theres just noone with openGL skill enough to write it (aka there was ZDaemonGL in past but have no clue), Venom one time said he like'd to write it in DirectX which sounds silly to me, cut its not multiplatform and does not fit into doom universe... also heck..... how you cannot manage 60 fps ?! How you can say this and this port can run this and this much fps? I made HUGE map with many objects with transparent and many complicated effects... then it was first time i got FPS drop in zdaemon.... but in simple maps like doom2.wad has? no way.... be more accurate plz <,<
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RaVeN-05
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am accurate, only says what the tests tells me. Probably you have superior computer than. How the hell i can run quake4 on max settings and unreal tournament 2004 on max settings without fps drop but for old game that comes from 1995 year was very slow?

quake4 (2005) = more than 60 fps
UT2004 (2004) = more than 60 fps
DOOMU (1995) = less than 59 fps (wtf? what the wrong with that eh?)

I am will be more sad if Tetris will not work on my computer. =(

But i Love Doom,Heretic,Hexen so much don't tell me to go play some other games. And love them to play in multiplayer mode.

P.S. I still have ZDaemonGL on my computer and i am really very very love it. Smile
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude! You have SOMEHOW test it for accurate results like :
PS: fps are random, its just a sample pic
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RaVeN-05
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what your suggestions?
Give me test wad that works on all source ports.
So i start at one place and even don't move mouse, and don't touch anything on keyboard or mouse or any input devices.
I can write all specs of my PC.

And what the best FPS meter program that can give me most real results:
in format like:
min FPS, average FPS, max FPS.
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aeyesx wrote:
but you don't know the true abilities of zdaemon engine ...

Okay, let me repeat so everyone can hear:

It is impossible to port Winter's Fury to Zdaemon. Prove me wrong. I care very little about your little lies and excuses. We made the bet and I'm willing to pay up if you deliver what you boasted about. You'd better be ready to do the same if you fail.
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're only dodo that cannot think. And I am not gonna spend days by converting some silly wad just because ure dodo. Hmm let's see ... there's couple of capable mappers, if only few of them could share they're opinions... I converted few wads with zedek hmm ill try get his opinion :p
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Zedek
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Joined: 10 Mar 2013
Location: Tijuana, México

PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides of OpenGL's lightning effects.

Most of the acs can work as it is right now, principal problem might be sethudsize and transforming pictures to fonts.

As for the actors most of them are not too complex, so they can be converted using DEHACKED + DEHSUPP.
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zedek wrote:
Besides of OpenGL's lightning effects.

My point all along, but medis claimed he'd be able to approximate all of it in Zdaemon. He claimed so many ridiculous, mind boggling things I just feel sorry for anyone working honestly on implementing features for zd, because then this guy comes along as the self-imposed mouthpiece that embarrasses everyone in public with his grotesque claims. The guy even whined about Boom maps crashing when he tried to run them in chocolate-doom!

I'm sorry for the useless tangent, but his irrational fanboyism and inexplicable hatred for prboom-plus (which is a completely redundant port according to him) just bring a twitch to my eye.
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blah! You were talking about boom beign vannila compatible (which is not entirely true when its pumped with tons of its own extra features). You said that scythe would not run in chocolate doom... actually it could if mappers would want to remain compatible but they broked 128 planes limit everywhere, whatever there was more "issues" even in first scythe such as corrupted level parts or duplicated floor textures.

whatever

Noone is trying to run boom on vannila, what i was doing as I many times told you, was making few maps run on oda/zd properly.

And yea, Winter Fury was made specificaly for zdoom, by many people.
With a lot of effort it could run there either, but it does not worth it...
So what you're about... ? You can only proove that noone will propably do that, but dont tell me that it is not possible. Thats just silly
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DoomKid
Unstoppable!


Joined: 09 May 2008
Location: Aussie Land

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To get back on topic, I've never had any issues with the framerate in the current build of Zdaemon.. It runs at 35 consistently with very few hiccups. I personally get nauseous when I play other ports with uncapped framerate, but I guess it could be a cool feature for some people. Personally, I'd never use it.
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Kilgore
Air Cavalry


Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Up the river

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid you're still mixing hardware and software.
Quote:
...
Zandronum 140-175 fps (min, max)

I don't care what setting you use in some port or another; if you see numbers like 100+ fps at 1680x1050, then it is DEFINITELY using a hardware renderer and it is NOT COMPARABLE to ours which is strictly software.

Quote:
Zdaemon 37-59 (32-47 at my home PC AMD+ATI)

ZDaemon always worked at 35 fps; this has been the norm in Doom for ever and it worked just fine, If so, what's the problem with 37-59? what if we didn't have uncapped FPS?

Quote:
I am using virtual 320x200 option is on to have 60 fps but even with that fps is dropping some times too.
...
It hurt my eyes i cant enjoy playing ZDaemon multiplayer.

No wonder you call it ugly; take the virtual 320x200 option OFF, lower the resolution to something more sane (like 1280x720). Also make sure SSAA is OFF. Such a setting looks reasonably good and it will give you more FPS.

Furthermore, higher FPS in other games (eg., in games based on the quake engine) give you advantage in game: this is not so here. I don't care what FPS you use, you will not run/shoot/jump any better than people with standard FPS.

In closing, we're always on the lookout for faster things, but there will NOT be wholesale porting of renderers from other ports; I can guarantee you that. If we do that, there may be (1) compatibility problems between what we use now and that other things, and (2) source code licensing issues.
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RaVeN-05
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Joined: 17 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, i am downloaded Zdaemon latest version, i am not touching any settings except (set it to 1680x1050) and (go fullscreen) and (viewsize max) and (uncap fps).

So i have bad performance, i am don't want to have superior count of fps (60 constantly is enough) and it not gives adventage to other players its just much more enjoyable and comfortable game play.

Did you make it somehow faster please.
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me it looks like theres something wrong with you're computer RaVen,
Like some virus in background running DDoS or simply its part of botnet which eats a lot of CPU needed for rendering... (since software render is mostly calculated by cpu), Cuz imagine.... for me (and every other i believe) people its running stable at 60 fps (adaptive VSYNC, it can go as much high as you're screen can print it (but obviously its uo to 60). I believe there is tiny place for improvements in zdaemon render about performace ....

Imagine... I have netbook AOD257 with Intel Atom running 1.33 GHZ = i got 60 fps Idea

What to do Question

Try after cold-start of you're PC after lets say like 2-4 mins check TASK MANAGER and check usage of you're CPU.... It should be around 0-12% max... If it goes any higher ... it means theres something in background eating processor's time... check what process does...

Its the only thing i can think about Confused
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RaVeN-05
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tested at clean Windows 7 installation
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Aeyesx
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Joined: 13 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah true i forgot that... Hmm.... I can only think about drivers but ill give xp
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Kilgore
Air Cavalry


Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Up the river

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One last thing I forgot to mention above: ZDaemon always enforces vsync (your monitor's refresh rate) when uncapped is ON. There is no point going above your monitor's physical capabilities: it will only make the image worse (shearing) and increase your CPU consumption. Since your monitor works at 60 Hz, the best you could ever hope for is 60 fps (and that's a valid measurement unlike the 170 fps which is theoretical).
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