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My Sr50 alias
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Gyrossman
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Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Location: Czech Republic

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Binded sr50 still takes skill and time to develop, you still need to learn how to get the right angle and everything else. I've been using it for some time as well, so I know my stuff. Funny thing though, I never used it for those dwango5 dances dew mentioned, I agree however, that's the only place you can get some advantage with binds. But when someone is really running, needs to cut those corners as fast as possible and then keep going, the old exe-way is tits and feels perfectly natural to me.

I agree with Chaindude, what he said about Quake is spot-on. The easier players can get in the game by setting up the config the right way, the better. I can't imagine a new-guy, who will grind sr50 for hours only to get somehow fair conditions to play a 15 years old game. So IF the binded way looks easier to some, it still makes sense to keep it as it is. I mean, in case we're still looking for some fresh blood in Doom.
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: DUI All The Way

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point on this has always been that the bind was unfair for those who learned SR-50 the hard way.
At one point in time, the people who could perform SR-50 here were few and far between.
This new bind suddenly gave the SR-50 ability to players who could never have hoped to accomplish it the normal way.
Old schoolers who spent weeks and months perfecting this ability suddenly found that they had wasted their time as raw n00bs began pulling off SR-50 with ease.
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Xenaero
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Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: United States Clan: UniDoom

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

switcher wrote:
My point on this has always been that the bind was unfair for those who learned SR-50 the hard way.
At one point in time, the people who could perform SR-50 here were few and far between.
This new bind suddenly gave the SR-50 ability to players who could never have hoped to accomplish it the normal way.
Old schoolers who spent weeks and months perfecting this ability suddenly found that they had wasted their time as raw n00bs began pulling off SR-50 with ease.


Only fake, whiny oldschoolers. There are a great deal of actual, good players who continue to play either with the old method of utilizing SR50 and some even use binds for SR50 for themselves. You're making this an issue when it really is not to begin with. The option is there for all to use. In fact, I would figure you of all people would be grateful for it being present for you to use. Certainly the competitive players who also consist of people who have definitely been playing before I was around ZDaemon don't argue against it. So why you?

Because, you know, that's what normal, intelligent individuals do when presented with a free (omg!!) improvement over the method they currently use. You know who complains every time this happens? (I'm talkin real situations too not just this virtual hoopla) The cranky, elitist dudes who try to situate themselves over the rest of the crowd and create a stir over it, claiming they know how it should be done and if they had their way (Luckily you do not) how it would always be done.

There is always EXE or, hey what am I talking about? There's an improvement over EXE and yet maintains as much faith towards it as can be done in a modern environment. It's Chocolate Doom. Please don't tell me you're going to argue EXE for the sake of argueing. After three pages of this, it's really absurd, dude. Put the hatchet down.

There's literally nothing wrong about this (sr50 bindings). There's not one solid argument against it, and lots of good arguments for it. If you want to make a point, use sr50 better than everyone else. Although that wouldn't really prove anything, it's the closest you can get, because skill in using a tool trumps the method the tool is used with.

Quote:
Old schoolers who spent weeks and months perfecting this ability suddenly found that they had wasted their time as raw n00bs began pulling off SR-50 with ease.


I can't get enough of this part, though. Laughing You could say the same thing about a lot of things in the transition from EXE to ZDoom to ZDaemon. But you consider yourself such an oldschooler, and I guess since I too have a SR50 bind, I'm a raw n00b despite my established presence in the competitive community and my join date preceding yours. Hell, evidently I'm a cheating n00b as evidenced by your first post in the thread, and I find that incredibly offensive.

But enough talk! How about we settle this in a OLD FASHIONED grudge match?
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xenaero is pissed! I pretty much agree with everything Xenaero said, except about the part where he hinted that he was good. That is false!
Anywho, Switch mentioned that the old way took long to develop and master...as a user of the old method, I don't think it's hard at all. In fact, I think it's pretty damn easy. Up until last IDL season, I rarely sr50'd because I didn't see an extraordinary use for it. Truth be told, for the type of position I played my entire doom career, there wasn't a high demand for it. Then I began playing more mid/2nd runner and I felt I needed to improve my speed to establish my presence in a match. That's when I made the decision to use sr50 more frequently and after 2 or 3 days, I had it down square. It really isn't that hard and I believe it trumps the bind method anyway, so in either event I don't think it really matters or serves as a real advantage. And remember, even if it does, this method is available to others and there's nothing stopping old school players from doing this themselves.

I know it's a bit of a tough pill to swallow but think of it like this. In the 1930s, cleats hadn't been established in football yet. Do you see anyone complain when they started using them? Obviously not considering how important a good pair of cleats is in todays game. I know the comparison isn't the greatest since sr50 isn't that hard to begin with (nor do I believe it gives you a huge advantage with binds) but I believe this really sums it up best. It's meant to enhance the game and a good portion of IDL players use this if I'm not mistaken. So, in conclusion, I'll also point out that if something is not broken, why are we trying to fix it? If people want sr50 with binds, let them. If people want to disable movebob, let them. If people want to bind 180 turns to a single key, let them. If people want to rocket jump, let them. I'll stress this one last time as a closing statement:
It's only a disadvantage if you allow it to be; there's nothing stopping you from doing it yourself.
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dewww
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

switcher wrote:
This new bind

isn't this a feature present in everything based on zdoom? read: it's been in zdaemon from the beginning, it was just discovered later on. basically it's just another layer of automation and not even an universally more advantageous one. singling it out in zealous crusade for purity of doom would be highly hypocritical. let's have some examples.

the first generation of doomers didn't know about the joy_b config hack and had to hold down the shift key to keep running. then suddenly everyone hacked their configs and never looked back.
vanilla doom doesn't let you rebind weapons to different keys, perhaps true oldschoolers could cry about these zd newbs tarnishing the doom bushido by not having to stretch their fingers to '7' for the bfg.
thad refused my movebob example, but here's another: novert. it used to be artificially removed from vanilla by a .com mouse hack running in the background and no one ever cried about it, but it's a profound change to player's general movement. we got it "for free".

we're playing a modernized version of doom. we enjoy facilitated funcions at every step, sr50 bind is only "special" because it is considered an "elite" move. here's a funny anecdote: i stumbled across some text files of 90's era compet-n demos and guess what. unlike other engine exploits and bugs, sr50 was discovered "late" when the scene was already established and, uhm, boundaries were drawn. then pioneers like adam hegyi started using sr50 and managed to improve records seen as optimal (doom2 map30). and you know what? demonlord, perhaps the most prominent doomgod of the first generation, didn't like the idea of his hardly worked achievements being cheapened by an obscure bug that wasn't known before. he saw his sr40'ing habits to be the one true path of doom... does this ring a bell?

the question is "where do we draw the line?" i can give you my opinion that mostly follows the current politics of the speedrunning scene. features that only make your life easier, but do NOT give you the ability of performing something impossible by mortal humans, are considered legal. tools like sr50 on turns or sr50 automation are forbidden, because the former is impossible to achieve by normal means in doom engine and the latter is to movement what aimbot is to aiming. sr50 bind doesn't enable anything impossible for the OS setup, it's just easier for certain applications. imo.

i guess my final point could be: where does your sense of entitlement stem from? older doom generations came and went, believing the set of standards one acquired (when he "discovered" the doom scene) is the ten commandments of doom is... naive. let's not repeat mistakes of our "doomfathers".
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ufon
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Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Location: Czech republic

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the points dew is making, which is a refreshing break in all the rumbling which goes for pages and pages without any actual arguments other than "it's there, I'm used to it, so it must stay that way, don't remove or class action(everybody leaves)".

I liked the joy_b example the most and i think that would be too OS even for Switcher's liking. OS zealot(not saying Switcher is one as i know he is a CTF guy) has no business playing zdaemon in the first place.
I don't, however, agree with the comparison to regular binds, that's just changing one key for another, not making anything easier, just allowing to customize your set-up. But i think it demonstrates well how complicated the subject is and how difficult it is to draw the line.

That being said, i agree with the essence of what Switcher is saying. I don't mind one key SR50 because i honestly believe it's more difficult to perform than pressing USE and moving the mouse in either direction, but i agree that stuff which is meant to be difficult, should stay difficult.
The problem with sr50 is it wasn't meant to be anything, it's a bug. If SR50 was meant to be difficult and i believed one key sr50 was making it easier(and if i played more often than on the occasional LAN party), i would be making the exact same argument Swicher's making right here.
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LordBritish
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: Britannia

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this reminds me of people who whine about using bfg, even though they spent "weeks and months" perfecting their ssg aim. it still takes skill to perform, and if it's really that much of an advantage, use it yourself. it's readily available to whoever wants it (all u gotta do is copy and paste).
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: DUI All The Way

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Babe Ruth hit 60 homers the old fashioned way.
Mark McGuire hit 70 on steroids.
Mark McGuire would have never been able to reach even 50 homers without the modern day steroids cheat.
His accomplishment is tarnished and he will likely never enter the Hall of Fame now because of it.
Does this situation sound familiar to anyone? Wink
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Evolution
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Joined: 06 Sep 2005

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nope
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Rexnor
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Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Monterrey, Mexicoshire Clan: [R]

PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does sr50 have to do with baseball? just sayin'

It's not like binded sr50 comes with an .exe file to make it illegal...

I learnt sr50 the old way, it wasn't that hard, and if the new people has now the chance to bind it, awesome! if people learns faster to play this game, and get better with it faster and easier, we get more competition, off the record, something zd is losing pretty quickly....

edit: Sr50 bind wasn't discovered yesterday...
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Thadeuss
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Location: www.areashiftybun.com

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try and keep it civil guys.
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SuperNova
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Location: Toledo, OH, Clan: >AC<

PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comparing sr50 binds to a cheat is ridiculous. Steroids gave Mark McGuire
an ability he never had at any point in his life. Most baseball purists will state strongly that had he never done them, he probably wouldn't have done anything significant in baseball at all, perhaps never even making the Major Leagues. Regardless of your stance on the bind, it does not give you the ability to perform something you'd never be able to do without it (as dewww alluded to).
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: DUI All The Way

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I beg to differ.
Before the bind came about, there were very few players in the game who took the time to learn how to do the multi key version of SR-50.
Many tried to master it and gave up.
The bind gives anyone the SR-50 ability ... including those who could never hope to do so otherwise.
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Fluffles
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Joined: 31 Dec 2007

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've wondered what this binded sr-50 was tbh, sounds stupid as anything. I always thought sr-50 was easy if I'm actually doing it right which is w + d + ctrl (as strafe) and just moving my mouse to the way I wanna go (left or right button) then just lock into position, if no one could learn it like that they aint got much hope for movement in zdaemon if that's actually sr-50 though which I think it is lol.
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DevastatioN
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Joined: 31 Jul 2002
Location: Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure why I'm getting into this.

But the binded method of sr50 is an advantage. I do use it, but find it unfortunate for it's existence. People without my level of coordination can easily do sr50 now, whereas in the past, people wouldn't be able to get that good at sr50.

The binded version is more precise and faster than manual sr50. It gives 0% for error. Making it possible to enable and disable faster when turning. But as I said, even I use it nowadays, and the improvement is noticeable. I only rely on the fact that people don't use it at correct angles, so that is now my only advantage over anyone for sr50.

Getting rid of it now? Well, prolly not required. Doom2.exe allowed for ONE key to be double binded, so sr50 activation on a single key was possible, but only in one direction.

sr50 binds I use are listed in my doom guide, but it's activation, not all in a single key, and I find this a better method personally, and I think it's actually easier than single key, cause it's on/off and easier to go back to sr40 instantly.

So in reality, ZDaemon binds allow you to go in both directions, whereas exe only went in one direction. So might as well keep it now, but I do think it should never have existed from the beginning.
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DevastatioN
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fluffles wrote:
I've wondered what this binded sr-50 was tbh, sounds stupid as anything. I always thought sr-50 was easy if I'm actually doing it right which is w + d + ctrl (as strafe) and just moving my mouse to the way I wanna go (left or right button) then just lock into position, if no one could learn it like that they aint got much hope for movement in zdaemon if that's actually sr-50 though which I think it is lol.


That way works, but has to slight disadvantages really.

1. Moving your mouse without turning tends to disrupt your general mouse position, which drives some players crazy (as me, I can't stand my mouse not being in the same location).

2. Your mouse movement may not be constant, meaning you may not actually gain the full speed on every tic.

Turn key was always more stable than moving the mouse, but some people still prefer moving the mouse. There is a slight delay generally to hold down your CTRL key and then move the mouse, to make sure the mouse doesn't move before you press CTRL (or you turn and mess up your angle). Where as the single key is instant.

Imagine going from WD+CTRL+Mouse Right to instantly SA+CTRL+Mouse left, and back and forth for dodging, that would prolly get kinda insane, and you're not even 100% sure it's at top speed every tic. Where as someone just has to go Q, E, Q and achieve the same dodging, but at 100% top sr50 speed.
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Fluffles
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Joined: 31 Dec 2007

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clarification mate, I wondered for a while ever since I spoke to a few people about it. Yeah actually I have noticed I'm not always doing sr-50 but I do do it when I really need to luckily. Which I think is good enough for the time being. I'll probably learn to do it better when I really need to someday Smile
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[NSoD]RG_Sniper
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, I would love to learn how to do sr50 without binds on my configuration, but i literly have no room for turn left and turn right on my config, and my kb doesnt even let me press more then 2 keys at a time Sad
is it realy that much of a problem that people can press 1 button to do what you do with 4? then by that logic, does everyone here carry around a stack of cds, while people who have the binds carry an ipod?
did microsoft really have to make a windows 7 when windows xp can do everything windows 7 can with special software, apps, programs, hardware, ect.

so is sr50 binds really a cheat after all? if you still say yes, let me ask you this, name one product in the usa that wasn't made to simplify life.
sure, you could spend 5 minutes and find out what 3253359x46892 equals with a pen and paper, or you could pick up a calculator and find out in 10 seconds.
so just stop bitching just because people can do what you do easier.
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Fluffles
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well you can do it the zdaemon way and just move your mouse left and right then thats the left/right arrows for you Razz
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[NSoD]RG_Sniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

which isnt the continuous way Razz
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