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DX-Chain
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The topic of cheating can be quite subjective...

Let's say we have two teams, Team A and Team B. Ok, Team A is playing in its own server and is getting owned by Team B. One could argue that Team A is cheating when they start kicking players from Team B so that they can win a meaningless little round of public CTF Surprised.
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Xenaero
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Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: United States Clan: UniDoom

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enVision wrote:
The one key SR50 thing has been branded as a cheat because it allows even the noobiest of noobs to perform whats seen as a complex manoeuvre and that detracts from the game. Things like turn180 will also be talking the walk too and anything else that is regarded as 'un-natural' movement (except freelook and jump).


How interesting. Abilities built into the source port are branded as cheats? I find it amusing that there are shortcuts to pulling these off, that are branded as such, and yet there are such stout supporters of bugs like the plasma bump. Rolling Eyes Doesn't matter if it was intended to be used like it was or not, does it? The fact is, everyone uses it. Do you really think that this is going to be branded as a cheat just because there's an easier way to do it? Well, damn, you can say that about a lot in this game.

switcher wrote:
I heard that the multi bind key flaw may be corrected in an upcoming version.
When that happens, those who were too lazy to learn the proper way to run SR-50 are going to look pretty slow all of a sudden.


I don't see how it affects you in such a way that you really care about people who use a 1-key SR50. Does it really help you so drastically that its usage is the difference between 50-49 and 50-30 in a 1v1, or 5-0 and 5-4 in CTF? No, not really. If you really did know anything about this game, you wouldn't be getting all upset over this. Think this is a personal attack? I'm sure you do. But it's not. I'm pointing out the idiocy in getting all riled up over this completely stupid 'point', which really is just an arguing ground for the elitist players, such as yourself, JKist, Devastation, and other self-proclaimed oldschoolers. I never saw anything like this back then, where you people got your panties into a bunch because there was a simpler way of achieving a goal. The old idiom of 'adapt and overcome' seems not to apply to you, if you're calling for a removal of a 1-key solution. Am I the only 'oldschooler' left with a sense of honor and sportsmanship, switcher?

switcher wrote:
I always thought it was funny to see an obvious n00b who can not move or shoot suddenly speeding away with SR-50.


Funny how? That they're not as skilled in movement or aim, but know how to use a tool that simply requires a few keypresses normally? Please.

switcher wrote:
And Shakal, don't you think it is a cheat when you take the time and effort to learn a difficult skill in a game and then 10 years later someone comes up with a way to make it so easy that a baby could do it?


Here's the part I don't understand, how does it affect you? Because if indeed this bit was true...

switcher wrote:
SR-50 was the most difficult skill to master in this game.


...Which, is up for debate, considering there are many different skills that many players could consider the most difficult to learn and master, then you wouldn't be throwing a fit over this. After all, you can use it under .exe circumstances, can you not? Therefore, the change does not affect you, and as a result, there is no need to keep harping on players for being 'cheaters' in using the one-key solution.

switcher wrote:
Now this cheat effectively gives the SR-50 skill away for free to all the Johnny-Come-Latelys.

So technically no it's not cheating - yet.


What? This is one hell of a self-contradiction. You label it as a cheat in the first sentence, then in the second line, you said it's not a cheat. Make up your mind.

switcher wrote:
But morally, yes, of course it is cheating all of those players out of the time and effort they made to learn SR-50 before this cheat was discovered.


Oh, morally cheating. In an online game? Umm, yeah. See, there's a problem with a person if you think you're being cheated on, just because there's an easier method of doing something, and you're using a harder method just to justify an argument against the former? That seems like you're going out of your way, there, when it's clearly self-contained in the source port, it's available to everyone who wants to use it. Don't be like that, man. That's like me saying using a quick weapon switch before I pick up a new weapon, so I can fire said new weapon faster as a result, is cheating because I usually just switch on pickup, and as a result, I get blown away. Do you think that's a stupid analogy to make? Look at what you're arguing about!

switcher wrote:
Don't you think the use of steroids is cheating legitimate athletes out of the time and effort that they've put into honest training?
What once took a dedicated athlete three years of training can now be done by just about anyone in only one year with steroids... is that not cheating?


Speaking of stupid analogies. Hey, look. Athletic activities that involve steroids are a completely different story compared to a trick in a video game that you can use with only one key instead of multiple keys. Steroids, well, hell yeah, of course it's cheating. But you compare steroid usage in sports to this? If anything, I'd compare steroid usage to aimbotting, if I had to compare it to anything.

switcher wrote:
Of course, coming from TC with murky credentials, I would not expect the Admiral to agree that anything is cheating.


What does this have to do with SR-50? Are you not above retorting in such a manner, effectively tacking on an insult after an argument?

switcher wrote:
But hey, that's just my opinion and as Shakal has taken his time to point out, I am not important.


And hey this is my opinion, too, so if you take it personally, that's fine with me. As if it'll really affect how I play this game.

Also, I learned SR-50 the 'hard way'. And now, I use a two-key solution. Why not one-key? Because two-key works better for my playing style. As a player, I have a dedication to my own skill and style, not a dedication towards policing others'.
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GhoulSlayeR
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some points coming from some of the "EXE Legends" who hack their doom2config to enable auto-run, Which was/is perfectly acceptable.

Traditional Sr50 wasn't hard at all for me to learn, took me only but a week or 2 to master it rofl, not no 1+ year(s) haha.

I use traditional sr50 thats the way I learned and thats the way I want to keep using it, I could honestly care less what other people do with their configuration. It doesn't give them any set advantages.


Last edited by GhoulSlayeR on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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enVision
A.K.A. Rat-Arsed


Joined: 13 Dec 2002
Location: Lagland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xenaero wrote:
How interesting. Abilities built into the source port are branded as cheats? I find it amusing that there are shortcuts to pulling these off, that are branded as such, and yet there are such stout supporters of bugs like the plasma bump. Rolling Eyes Doesn't matter if it was intended to be used like it was or not, does it? The fact is, everyone uses it. Do you really think that this is going to be branded as a cheat just because there's an easier way to do it? Well, damn, you can say that about a lot in this game.

Plasma bump, wall run, silent bfg, etc. are all examples of bugs that have grown to be an integral part of the game. Turn180, bound sr50, etc. are the remnants from the zdoom port that haven't been taken out because, let's face it, there have been more important things to do.

You can't say the two are the same because they're clearly not.
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Xenaero
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Joined: 23 May 2003
Location: United States Clan: UniDoom

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enVision wrote:

Plasma bump, wall run, silent bfg, etc. are all examples of bugs that have grown to be an integral part of the game. Turn180, bound sr50, etc. are the remnants from the zdoom port that haven't been taken out because, let's face it, there have been more important things to do.

You can't say the two are the same because they're clearly not.


And why would you take them out? Surely, they are growing to be a more integral part of the same just as the glitches and bugs that shipped with the original exe have. Are they to be taken out just to satisfy the elitism of a select few?

I have seen many complaints about the bound sr50 and such, but have not once, not once seen a legitimate reason for its removal.
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: DUI All The Way

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why?
Because we played without it for years, it was not part of the game, and should never have happened - it was an overight, a mistake.
Anyway, we all have our opinions.
People can do what they choose, I just wanted to make sure I gave the correct key sequence required for SR-50...
DuckReconMajor will need to know which actions to bind if he decides to use it.
Having this thread hijacked is a great way to show the type of community we really are. Very Happy
Guys will line up on the same sides they always do.
Anyway, when it comes to discussing the game itself, nothing is taken personal.
Just leave my mom out of it. Wink
Oh and please don't use my name in the same sentence as guys like JKist or Devastation.... I am far from being l33t like them or you.
And haven't you heard? JKist3 is NEW SCHOOL! Razz


Last edited by switcher on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ladna
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey DuckReconMajor.

Mouse sensitivity is largely personal. I find I have better control with my wrist than with my arm, so I set my sensitivity pretty high. Honestly, though, I don't really know what all the mouse options do (pre-scaling, turning speed, etc.). Experimentation is key here. Also, get a mouse you like and that there are a lot of. You can always fix your sensitivity, you can't always fix your mouse, and adjusting to a new one isn't a lot of fun.

Most players SR-40 (which is just using forward/backward combined with strafe-left/strafe-right) almost all the time. SR-50 is used less because you can't turn while using it. Also, the angle is different from SR-40, so if you're used to SR-40, SR-50 can feel stupid.

Wallrunning is extremely useful, and I suggest you learn which walls you can and can't wallrun on (Switcher gave you the skinny, experiment on different maps). There are some maps with long-ish straightaways that take forever to get through unless you wallrun, so just that by itself is reason enough.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And really, this whole 1-key SR-50 thing is a little silly. http://www.autohotkey.com/ is a nifty little program for binding 1 key to do lots of different things. Alternately, you can purchase this cool keyboard: http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/20/microsoft-intros-sidewinder-x6-keyboard-and-x5-mouse/ and map macros to the numpad.

Other external mods include:

    a script that activates a UDP filter, for quick and convenient lag
    a hacked display driver with a 'no red' mode
    a touchscreen, for crazy killing accuracy
    mouse macro programs, for perfecting those tricky rocket jumps
    logging in a second computer to the server you're in, to spectate your opponent (maybe you can also do this with one computer using VMWare?)

It's like back in the day when elite doomers would tape crosshairs in the middle of their screens, or paperclip down the run key. Is it cheap? A little. Are you just mad because you spent your time learning a video game technique the hard way and someone thought of a way to not waste precious life? Face it, there's tons and tons of undetectable "cheats" for any game, and the only way to figure it out is to LAN with someone. We play ZD for fun, not for fairness Wink
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ufon
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Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Location: Czech republic

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's like back in the day when elite doomers would tape crosshairs in the middle of their screens, or paperclip down the run key. Is it cheap? A little. Are you just mad because you spent your time learning a video game technique the hard way and someone thought of a way to not waste precious life? Face it, there's tons and tons of undetectable "cheats" for any game, and the only way to figure it out is to LAN with someone. We play ZD for fun, not for fairness


I play the game for fun and and i would like it to be as fair as possible at the same time. Using external programs to help you perform moves/tricks which are supposed to be done by the player itself is on a par with using an external program to do the aiming for you.
Obviously there is only so much you can do as far as detection of these goes, but i wouldn't say that makes them any more legitimate.

Xenaero wrote:
And why would you take them out? Surely, they are growing to be a more integral part of the same just as the glitches and bugs that shipped with the original exe have. Are they to be taken out just to satisfy the elitism of a select few?

I have seen many complaints about the bound sr50 and such, but have not once, not once seen a legitimate reason for its removal.


Correct me if i'm wrong but i believe the bugs weren't taken out of doom2 because it would have required some fundumental changes to the game engine(to eliminate sr-40, wallrun, and possibly sr-50 effects and fix theBFG functionality ) which just wasn't worth the effort.

Just as the doom2.exe authors, zdaemon team have a certain vision of what the port is supposed to be like, and they have the time and resources to make the vision come true. You can argue all you want, but if they see fit to remove a certain feature, a feature which wasn't introduced intentionally but rather accidentaly, they are gonna do just that. And unless majority of the players disagree, i don't see why they should not.


Last edited by ufon on Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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cha0tix
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago, IL Hangout: #DarkAlley @ OFTC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its just as silly as the debate when there were complaints to remove "movebob" options. Why would you care what another man uses for his config? Do we all need to use WSAD now? Is binding mouselook going to earn us a spot at the stake? I can't see how a bug in the game engine flies but legitimate options within the engine are heretic.

There is NO, (repeat it with me) NO game ruining advantage that is on par with aimbots and the likes.
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ufon
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Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Location: Czech republic

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cha0tix wrote:
Its just as silly as the debate when there were complaints to remove "movebob" options. Why would you care what another man uses for his config? Do we all need to use WSAD now? Is binding mouselook going to earn us a spot at the stake? I can't see how a bug in the game engine flies but legitimate options within the engine are heretic.

There is NO, (repeat it with me) NO game ruining advantage that is on par with aimbots and the likes.


We've discussed movebob thoroughly in the past so i might be repeating myself here. It's up to the dev team to decide what they want their port to be like. Let me just tell you i find comparing movebob to key binding just plain silly, bobbing was never meant to be customizable by the doom2 authors(and most likely not even by the zd authors) - unlike key bindings, it was probably just added to the zdoom engine for the purpose of testing or adjustment before the final value(0.25) could be established. Just like a whole array of other variables which were later removed. Now you can argue: while it's there - it's there, lets leave it there just like the good ole' doom2 bugs. I say let's remove it, just like doom2 bugs would have been removed had IDsoft had the time/energy/will to do that. You might say, well, maybe ID wanted those bugs to be there, no problem, but do the zd team want the "bugs" to be there ? If so, they're gonna stay, if not and they have the time/energy/will to fix that, it shall be fixed.
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Rexnor
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Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Monterrey, Mexicoshire Clan: [R]

PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe binding SR-50 to a single key instead of pressing 5 keys at the same time could be compared to evolution, we just adapt faster to movements that could have been harder to get used to at first Smile I don't think it could be considered cheat, just like binding turn 180 to a key instead of turning the mouse all the way around, we just get new tools to improve gameplay Smile

Cha0tiX wrote:
There is NO, (repeat it with me) NO game ruining advantage that is on par with aimbots and the likes.


Agreed.
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Goatface
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Joined: 15 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Binding SR-50 to one key is not a cheat. Cheating is giving yourself an advantage that is not available to all players. Some players choose not to, but all players are able to do it so it's not a cheat.
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Stealth
Gone with the wind


Joined: 09 Nov 2004

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel sorry for the person who started this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if they're sprinting away.
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Rexnor
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Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Monterrey, Mexicoshire Clan: [R]

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StealthCP wrote:
I feel sorry for the person who started this thread. I wouldn't be surprised if they're sprinting away.


we just want to clarify them that SR-50 bind to a single key is not a cheat as many It-took-me-a-year-to-learn-to-use-SR50 players imply, so they may feel comfortable with this alternative Wink

Chaindude wrote:
Let's say we have two teams, Team A and Team B. Ok, Team A is playing in its own server and is getting owned by Team B. One could argue that Team A is cheating when they start kicking players from Team B so that they can win a meaningless little round of public CTF Surprised


rofl reminds me of certain servers Surprised
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Location: DUI All The Way

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

switcher originally wrote:
And Shakal, don't you think it is a cheat when you take the time and effort to learn...


Then GhoulSlayeR, not wanting to miss an opportunity to openly brag about himself again (but not realizing that a week or 2 is actually quite a long time to take to master SR-50 Razz ) first began the "one year" urban legend all by himself when he inexplicably wrote:
Traditional Sr50 wasn't hard at all for me to learn, took me only but a week or 2 to master it rofl, not no 1+ year(s) haha.


Rexnor, after skimming over some posts in this thread and not really bothering if any of them are actually relevant or not, picks up on the phrase "not no 1+ year(s)" from the abovementioned quote and perpetuates GhoulSlayerS imaginary timetable when he wrote:
as many It-took-me-a-year-to-learn-to-use-SR50 players imply...


Now I know a lot of you don't bother reading threads before replying but really.
It's amazing how fiction evolves to fact around here.
There are no "It-took-me-a-year-to-learn-to-use-SR50" players.
Nothing's to see.
Move on.
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Emui-Tan
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Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: /!\

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed with Switcher, what else i can say. Glad what here is still some people what dont think what usage of termins "pride" and "online game" in same sentence is oxymoron.
PS. Im not using not fair not "evoluted" SR50, too lame for it. /!\
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Fred512
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I don't think the bind is a cheat but definitely a cheap move. Now I never really learned sr50 but using a key to do so just feels wrong (and yes a game can have morality to it). It's like everyone can have an easy button now.



I never would have thought that button was real!
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switcher
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goatface wrote:
Binding SR-50 to one key is not a cheat. Cheating is giving yourself an advantage that is not available to all players. Some players choose not to, but all players are able to do it so it's not a cheat.

Where did this definition of cheating come from?
It is blatantly incorrect.

Cheating is giving yourself an unfair advantage over other players whether that advantage is available to the other players or not.

Anyone can stuff some monopoly money in their pocket, copy someone else's test answers, put an ace up their sleeve, download aimbot, steal something from a store, take steroids or reconfigure their keys.

But the simple fact that all of these activities are freely available for anyone to do does not predlude them from being dishonest cheats.

It is up to the individual's own moral standards to decide whether or not they will cheat on an exam, cards, golf score, or online video game.

Those who choose to bypass the traditional SR-50 for the one key bind know deep down inside that they are taking a shortcut for something that should actually be much more difficult or even possibly out of their own reach through legitimate means.

It is undeniably easier to press on just one key than it is to press on five keys at once, so there IS a definite advantage to those who do this, and that is unfair.

Just keep in mind that, if the playing field is not level to all, it is no longer a fair game.

Simple as that.

I know some of you who do not mind, and in fact relish in using anything that will give you an advantage whether it is fair or not.

That is between you and your maker.

But I believe that most players here would not lie, cheat, or steal.
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ufon
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Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Location: Czech republic

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to disagree with the above "definition", even though i do realize we are kinda in the same boat.
Cheating means using an aproach to gain a certain advantage in a way which is not legit for the particular "subject", be it athletics, school exams or a computer game.

In a computer game, the bounderies are often defined by authors of the game, for example, you can modify the game to any extend as long as you're only using the built-in configuration options. No external tools to perform one key macros, graphics modification....etc.

I think when the game can be modified using an interface clearly accesible to anyone running the game, the modification is legit and the person should not be persecuted in any way(movebob, one key sr50). It's up to the game developers to allow / disallow for certain values to be touched and then setting out the rules to make sure everyone understands what cheating is and is not.
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switcher
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Joined: 26 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the developers have an obligation to determine what is cheating and what is not for their own game, however I still believe that just because something is possible to do does not make it right.
For example it is possible to reconfigure Apple's new iPhone to work on other services... although this has been defined as illegal in many jurisdictions.
Sure everyone can do it, but that does not make it right or not cheating.
Or let's say five guys own the same car and want to race, except one guy pops the hood, makes some mods, and goes 40% faster than the other guys.
Is that fair?
Sure everyone else CAN do it, but now just to stay equal they are OBLIGED to do it or fall behind.
So the logic of these one key wonders is that instead of getting a cheater to stop, we all must become equal cheaters to even things out.
Well, if that's the case then let's all pass around a bottle of aimbot.
But that's just not the way momma taught me.
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